I didn't select the picture, and take your point.

Who else would bother to care about the homeless and people in general except "Spirit filled" individuals? I doubt if anyone is denied food if they don't go along with the program.

What an egocentric view. Christians don't own (nor did they invent) brotherly love.

In his "Rhetoric", Aristotle (384 BC – 322 BC) defines the activity involved in philia (brotherly love) as:

"wanting for someone what one thinks good, for his sake and not for one's own, and being inclined, so far as one can, to do such things for him".

I am a Christian, well i at least strive to be more Christ like. When i helped my old Church on a bus rout to bring the under privelidged children to church, it wasnt to sell them religion, or sell them Jesus, it was a mini vaca away from the slum they live in. They all had fun and were introduced to morals, self government, food , moon walks , but most importantly Jesus Christ who paid for their sins and cannot be sold to them. The good book clearly says it is a gift, so all man can know him. Im not tryin to judge you or anyone, that is not my, nor any other Christians job.." judge not lest ye be judged by same means and measures" .. im just sayin.

you make it sound like a bad thing that when i buy a homeless man a meal, the meal is just a representation of a gift , a gift from my heart, kind of a smaller scale of a gift than the one our heavenly father gave, when he sent his son to die on a cross brutally  and innocently for my sins.

they get the meal whether or not they let me talk to them about  the Gift of life, you see the gift is in giving, and my job , my only job is to go ye there for and teach unto all nations, including my own.

"behold I stand at the door and knock...... "

it bothers me that people strow stones at a meal giver rather than jump in line and serve the needy with us,  and  fyi their need is truely not a meal to get them through the night  its a quick explanation on how to live forever, all meals will be comped by the Maker Himself (:))

freedom to smoke why - I'd put money on you being able to rant religious drivel at will for hours on end. You really should consider contacting the good people at Guinness World Records.

I agree with Dominic. Proselytizing is an abuse of power, particularly as those with the power also have something (food) that the power-poor not only want, but need.

Surely the really Christian / spiritual thing would be to give, humbly, without need to receive anything back. As Jesus said, really.

In my experience, in the UK, mostly, workers in Christian organisations do not proselytize, nowadays, as much as they did 150 years ago.

Jackie Carpenter, UK

Dominic, do you have any questions that i could answer for you or find out the answer by someone much wiser than i?? i dont know enough to rant for hours, but if it meant me conversing with someone for hours or days, if there was a chanch for me to plant a seed in their heart to want to love the Lord i would gladly  "rant" or at least be as good a witness as i could.

God bless you for your good compliment, but i still have so much to learn, and couldnt quote hours of scripture and even come close to being put into the book of world records, id have to work so hard to get into that book.... however i very easily got put into The Lambs Book of Life, quite simply by asking for forgivness for my sins and accepting Jesus into my heart  (:)) thank ya for the opportunity to spread the gospel to a stranger with eternity at stake. i will do my best to be a good witness and to love all

FoSW, it is obvious to me that you have never gone hungry or needed a place to stay.  If you did, you would understand the starkly uneven power dynamics that Dominic is talking about between the person in need of these things and the person in the position to provide them.  Jesus would never take advantage of a person's vulnerable state to give them the lowdown on everlasting life if he didn't sense that they were up to it, and he would certainly be sensitive enough to tell if they were just tolerating the sermon to get those things s/he needed.  Until you gain a little empathy through first-hand experience (God forbid) or (preferably)through a more astute, less self-absorbed look at the messages of the gospels, I must ask that you consider leaving off the proselytizing with these poor peeps.  

a meal should not be used to preach to the vulnerable. PERIOD. There's always strings attached, isnt' there? Jesus would not approve.

what about this scripture?

"let not the right hand know what the left hand is doing" when Jesus was asked about charity and giving.

Let me translate for you "christians", give for the sake of giving, do not blackmail people to do what you want just because you are feeding them.

Yep, because most Aussies don't put up with bible thumpers trying to sell the homeless on the idea that there's  a sky daddy that will feed their souls and bellies if they can only mend their ways; I mean, why else are the homeless without a home? They must be unrepentant sinners with souls that need a savin', right? If it's not the Governments fault, and it's not god's fault, then it must be the fault of the individual homeless man or woman.

I'm an Aussie, and I work at a Shelter in Colorado USA, and there in no proselytizing allowed, and I say AMEN TO THAT! I wouldn't work in any shelter that tries to get their hooks into the most vulnerable members of society, exploiting them when they are at their most susceptible, but what the heck, that's what they-the religious-do best.

PS

God must love homelessness, he sure allows enough of it; I guess he allows it so the pious can proclaim their piety from the roof tops no doubt

;-)

PPS

Having lived in America for over four years, I can truly say that a large percentage of Americans still believe in God, it is their patriotic duty to do so, just like it is for the North Koreans to worship their "great" deified leader.

If you are not a believer in America, then you simply must be an ax wielding psychotic who deserves to be homeless, or in prison, where they would like to see most Atheists by the way.

I really don't care that Jesus said the " the poor will always be with us," Jesus was an idiot who didn't say much good about anything, and the fact that the above quote is in the bible, and said to be the words of the "Messiah"...well...let me just say...this makes the rich Christians feel great about themselves, because it gives them a license not to lift a finger to help, after all, Jesus himself implies that the poor are never going to go away, so why bother? And God will take care of them anyways, will he not?

For any Christian that wants to respond to me, don't bother, I have heard every sugar coated argument used by you guys to make your monstrous god out to be a saint; I used to be a Christian, I know all the tricks of your trade, I just grew up and grew out of all that nonsense, it's called getting and education.

And as an Atheist who works toward the ideal of ending Homelessness, I don't have an agenda for doing so, other than to help alleviate the suffering. I don't do "good deeds" in the hope of reaching Nirvana, Heaven, or god damn Shangri la; I do it because it is the human thing to do, the humane thing to do. God is dead.

Tazzie,

I respect your opinion and your right to be an Atheist. The only part of your post that I would like to comment on is the first paragraph. I think homelessness and suffering exists because one we live in a fallen world that is corrupt and greedy and in all I blame myself, someone who happens to be a Christian. It isn't the fault of the individual that they are in a plight of suffering but it is the responsibility of mankind to help alleviate that suffering; so, in answer to your "why are they without a home" I answer that it's because we, I, have done a lousy job of helping those who are suffering. I know you probably support this stance but your inference appeared to me to suggest that most faith believing individuals feel their plight is a result of sin, lack of trying, any number of other issues. There are those out there who do believe that; however, for me, I know the buck stops with me...Christian or not.

Kudos Tazzie! Great comment!

I understand where you're coming from here, and freedom is important, but when people give money, they want to see it put to good use. Giving someone a 20 and then seeing them walking out of a liquor store is extremely frustrating. We want to help feed you, not feed an alcoholic addiction.

A friend of mine gave all the change in her pocket to help someone, and when he went and bought booze, she was heartbroken. She hates suffering and especially starvation, and seeing her pocket change wasted like that was too much for her.

Mike Conway, who are you to decide what is "wasted"?  Can a homeless person not decide how they would like to relax like a homed person?  Maybe the person your friend gave her money to had experienced a lot of generosity that day and decided to use the extra money to entertain him/herself.  Or maybe it had been an especially hard day and s/he wanted to relax, as I often relax with a drink after a hard day in my own home.  Why is a homeless person any different, because there is a stereotype that they are all drunks?  Even IF they are one of the homeless people who do abuse drugs or alcohol (who, contrary to popular belief, usually begin their habit AFTER they become homeless as a way to cope with the extreme hardships they are faced with), I would rather give money to someone and have them use that to support their habit than see them steal from someone else to do it.

Eden,

It's like this - food is a necessity. You need it to survive. Period. You don't eat, your body eventually stops working.

Booze is not necessary for either survival or relaxation, and getting liquored up certainly doesn't enable you to take on your problems by any degree. It just adles your brain and makes you useless to everyone, especially yourself. There's better ways of dealing with your problems, regardless of income level.

Not that I'm opposed to a drink now and again, myself.

I wouldn't put it past someone to take in a movie (dollar theater is ideal) or even go into a resteraunt and have a piece of pie. Movies can be relaxation and even pie has nutirents.

But booze is not a necessity, and kills, too. I don't want to waste my money on something that's going to kill someone.

Eden Hemming,

My personal opinion:

You clearly do not understand addiction to alcohol. You are basically saying that you would rather give that person a noose to commit suicide rather than give him the opportunity to steal one from some one else.

My father is an alcoholic, and from personal exposure to up to 50 different alcoholic lives (my father's friends and my relatives), I think I've had enough exposure to understand it. Anyone who tells you they just drink to relax is in the denial stage of their addiction. There are other ways to relax. Saying alcohol is for relaxation is just an excuse. Alcohol is little more than a way for the rich to control the poor.

Again, this is my personal opinion. To the best of my research, Christianity only condemns getting drunk.

I hope you'll forgive my emotional expression of my opinion, but too much of my family's and friends' lives have been destroyed from addiction to that ethanol.

Chris Meacham, "Anyone who tells you they just drink to relax is in the denial stage of their addiction." ...You do realize you just called me an alcoholic, right?  In fact, I have drunk alcohol with homeless people that I was friends with several times; only one of them had a problem with alcohol and I was not the only one present to recognize that, even though I was the only person with a home.  To lump every homeless person under that heading is to insult them.

Mike Conway, again I ask you, who are you to decide what that person does with their life?  How would you like it if your employer got to decide for you what you could do with your money and would not let you entertain yourself in the way that you saw fit to in that moment?  Why do you think homeless people are so much lower than you that they must be forced to be in pure survival mode at all times?  Why do you assume that a homeless person is getting "liquored up" as opposed to maybe buying a bottle to share with friends as we homed people do all the time?  What is it about a person without a home that makes you get to decide that you know what is best for them?  What is it about a person without a home that makes it okay for you to judge them when you don't even know their life at all?  What is it about a person without a home that means you can deny them their dignity and personal freedom, that you somehow have a right to put them on a leash like an unruly dog rather than recognize that they are a human being just like you?

I suppose it's not up to me to say how other people live their lives. If they want to drink booze and damage their bodies, that's their choice.

Since we're on the "how do you know" line of thought, how do you know that homeless people are constantly "in survival mode" or are completely miserable all the time? Oh, there likely is the occasional person who is, but you see that in homed people, too.

Personally, I have no money and get food from charities. It's not easy, but I'm generally a happy person, or try to be.

The problem I'm having with you is that you seem to be championinig victimhood. I'm sure it's a romantic notion of the downtrodden people who constantly live in abject horror and misery, but with all the homeless people I've hung around with, that doesn't seem to be the case most of the time. They're good people who make the best of their situation. Some are even homeless by choice. Hard to imagine somebody going into such horrible situation of their own free will.

I know it's no bed of roses, but life's that way not for anyone, either.

Now, on the donator's side, think of it like an investor. We give money to someone, we hope that it gets used in the best way possible. The best way in our minds is finding suitable food and beverage to make it through a day or two, or even more. Combine donation with charity, makes it a lot easier. That's what we call help.

Drinking alcohol to escape means you'll be maintaining that state of mind constantly, to the exclusion of food. This is vastly different from having a nice chardonay before retiring. This is the killing-yourself form of drinking. Why would we want to invest our money in someone who's going to kill themselves anyway. We want to invest in life.

Now if someone truly does buy a nice, flavorful bottle of celebratory drink and keep it to that, well, why not? I'm not going to hate someone celebrating a happy moment.

My friend gave someone all of her pocket change, and he went into a liquor store and emerged with a bottle of whiskey and took a big pull off of it. She was devastated. "I... wanted that man to eat!"

I doubt this guy was going to do more than just get completely toasted. Sorry, but that's my observation.

So, while I won't tell people what to do with their lives (I'm too libertarian for that), I want money I give to be of genuine help, not to kill someone.

Mike, the "constant survival mode" was in response to this: "Booze is not necessary for either survival or relaxation" and "But booze is not a necessity".  I was pinpointing your view, not mine.

What if the man had already eaten?  Is he not allowed to have a drink with a full stomach?

I've had very stressful things in my life, too, where I turned to copious amounts of alcohol to momentarily relieve that stress.  That doesn't make me an alcoholic.  One swift drink doesn't make a homeless person an alcoholic either.  I don't know why it is so hard for you to understand that.

If your friend wanted him to eat, she should have given him food or offered to buy him some.  I offered to buy a homeless man some food once and he suggested we get a cup of coffee instead since he wasn't hungry at the moment; I bought him a cup of coffee and we had a lovely conversation over it.  But if you give ANYONE money, you do not get to decide what they do with it, whether they have a home or not.  It's not your money anymore.  That's how gifts work.

Where in the world did I "champion victimhood"??  You are reading things into my words that are not there at all.  The only thing I am championing is the dignity and humanity of homeless people.  No, life on the streets is not a bed of roses but it's not 100% awful for everyone at all times either.  I do know people who CHOSE to live on the streets - to escape evil parents, to minister to the homeless in the name of God, and for simple life experience.  Even the people who didn't choose it showed me that life wasn't bleak for them all the time and in fact in some ways, they had things a lot more figured out than I did.  By only talking about the bad things, I think YOU are the one who is "championing victimhood", and treating homeless people like they are poor pathetic animals on top of it.  They don't need your pity or your strings-attached charity; many of them do well enough on their own.

Mike, maybe you shouldn't argue with people if you can't even understand what is being said.

For Mike Conway:

"hear tbroken" over "pocket change"???  Get real.  Let's look at what that's really about.  Someone gave a few cents and then faked sad disappointment in order to seriously put down someone else.  If I were you I would have told the "friend" to put their small change where the sun don't shine.  By the way, they say that "birds of a feather flock together.  .  .  .

Once money is given freely, it's no longer yours to worry about or even ponder what the recipient might be spending it upon.  Heck, he or she might use that paper money I gave them to light off whatever he or she smokes for all I know.  But at that point, it's their right and their choice - NOT MINE.  It was the same with your friend.  If she was going to get her knickers all a-twisted over the recipient figuring out it was just enough for their choice of "booze", then perhaps she would have been better off saying no or offering to buy something in particular like a soda or sandwich.  At the very least she should have found a charity to which to donate the funds, hopefully one about which she wouldn't need to worry about how THEY spent the money - after all, even some charities have spending issues...  Or maybe the money was given in secret hopes of an excuse to judge.  My experience has been that this is often why people "help" the needy - whether or not the needy are homeless - that it's to get a chance to judge them and how they live their lives.

Besides, one person's "luxuries" and "necessities" don't necessarily line up with what's a "necessity" and "luxury" for the next.  For example, look above at Ron Craven who clearly find freedom one of his most important things in life and who is willing to call many things a lot of us would call "necessities" a "luxury" if what he would have to do to get said "necessity" would impinge upon his freedom.  Me, I live below poverty and due to many circumstances in my life which I'd much prefer not to go into right now, find a computer with internet access and a cell phone to each be a necessity - while many would call them not just a luxury but patently wasteful at my level of income, no matter why someone in my income bracket would want or need them nor how either was obtained.

So when people evangelize to the food line... do you not know that they are the worst public relations exercise ever for their given brand of church?

Do you not know the 'line religious ranters' are laughed at by homeless people?

It's not about freedom to rant religion... it's about abuse of power. People who verbal the homeless and rant and rave... it's nothing to do with the poor people in the line it's about the needs of the preacher.

The preacher get's their needs met chasing the sexy souls and the homeless people in the line ignore them and learn to disrespect their church.

I've never tollerated it and at every service provider I've worked at or run: I set the rule and the homeless people have enforced the rule - no preaching.

It's disrespectful and I encourage homeless people not to put up with it and respond and make it clear that it's not acceptable.

The difference is preying on vulnerable people is not ok.

You either get that or you don't and will abuse the poor to suit your needs and wants.

You said "there's nothing wrong with leaving a pamphlet in the jecket that you give someone as they leave."

Does giving them the jacket give you the right to spew your religion at them with a pamphlet in a passive agressive manner?

It's about showing people respect, treating them with dignity and not selling stuff to aid your own adgenda.

Guy needs a jacket - give him a jacket.. leave it at that.

The saying 'they will know we are christians by our love' doesn't include pamphlets for your version of God or church. It doesn't mean banging on about your God or church while she is in a line to get a feed.

Why do people preach to homeless people with such force and not line up outside McDonnalds and preach to those customers?

Seriously why? Chasing sexy souls? What needs do you have? Let the homeless know so they can meet them... if that is what they are for.

Thank you for this engaging honest article.  This really is about the homeless having the identical dignity as every other human being.  Give these vulnerable people what they need not what a religion says they need.

I think it's pretty well established that those who spread their religion by verbal prognostication don't care whether people are laughing at them. Those who preach religion on the street corner in front of McDonald's can't possibly believe that no one is laughing at them. People laughed and laugh at Jesus. People laughed and laugh at Buddha. People used to laugh at Mohamed.

A preacher's needs have typically been met long before they try to spread their religion. I wouldn't consider it disrespectful for someone to preach Islam to me and offer a pamphlet to me as I wait in line at McDonald's. He clearly cares about what happens to me, whether or not I feel he is misguided in his preaching. I would probably consider discussing it with him if I'm not in a hurry.

It is only disrespectful if he forces you to wait for your goal until after you have listened. It is only disrespectful if he forces you to read the pamphlet before leaving or before throwing it out. In fact, I would rather the needy person give the pamphlet right back to me if he's not going to read it. That would save the effort some money.

Furthermore, you seem to think that there are no preachers in front of McDonald's. Have you been to some of the more densely populated cities? Have you seen the picket signs? These messages may be shorter than the average preacher, but it is the same goal at which they are attempting. And there are those who try preaching on the streets, though such is rarely successful on a large scale, but always on a meaningful level if just one person listens.

There will always be someone that is unhappy with you spreading your religion, no matter where or when you do it. There is a point where you have to just ignore those complaints, because those people will not respond to logic. That's how Jesus eventually handled it when the Pharisees complained. He gave them a chance to explain and when they had gone too far, He simply ignored them.

some people are addicted to the feeling of power they feel when they've helped someone out of a rut. Funny story, my ex was a devout catholic. Couldn't even have sex w/o running to confession. One day we were coming out of a pizza place with half a pizza and I noticed some "bums". I said, let's give them our pizza. He reluctantly agreed, but when he handed it to the guy, he made him "pay" first. He said, "you know, this pizza cost me 20 bucks so I hope you really appreciate the sacrifice I'm making so you can eat." I couldn't believe it! I said "just give him the damn pizza!" Needless to say, I dropped him like a hot rock shortly after.

Weak, fake, self-serving.

Daniel,

Calm down. Take a breath.

Ask yourself, did Jesus ever challenge anyone to a debate? Did Jesus ever discuss the end times in front of anyone other than believers, or more to the point, did Jesus ever threaten unbelievers?

It is very frustrating when discussing religion with those who are set against it, but keep in mind that many of those who are not set against religion can share the beliefs of those that are. Even Jesus was frustrated when believers didn't understand His teaching, but He was patient and discussed topics logically.

When you lose your temper, your opponent has effectively won the debate.

You've never been to a homeless shelter before, have you?

Trust me, when you have an empty stomach and it's demanding relief, sitting through an hour-an-a-half service before you're allowed to partake of anything gets frustrating. Maybe you're made of sterner stuff, but for most people, it's hard to think about religion when you're starving, or else the only prayer you can say is "Please God, let this be over soon so I can eat!"

It's easier to get to someone's soul when the vacuum in their stomach is filled.

And for the record, non-Christians do feed the homeless and don't require preaching for the food they serve. Look up Hare Krishna Food for Life sometime. Sure, you can talk to the nice monks, but they won't make you listen first.

I love my jesus too. But re-read the post, and comments. Religion is being forced on people and in an abusive way. It's not ok.

Daniel,

I can see why you might be upset, but I think you might be missing the point. No one is argueing (at least I am not) that faith believers can't or shouldn't deliver a message of hope to those who are suffering. The real arguement is when and where that message is delivered. Should we require people to attend a service before or after we feed people? Should we require people to join our organization before we offer them shelter on a cold wintry night? As spiritual believers, we owe it to mankind to provide service through love without expectation of anything in return. It is my belief that people will see God in those people who offer their help without strings attached. Jesus didn't require people to do anything to receive his blessings. He simply healed and through faith they believed. making people believe is not our job. Leave that up to God. All God is asking us to do is take care of the poor, the hungry, and the homeless. Actions are more effective than our words and sometimes words are more hurtful than our actions.

The soup kitchen I've gone to for years, including a period of homelessness, has many different churches, synagogues, and other religious organizations volunteering to feed those who come there, at least on Sunday.  Some of the groups pray in some way before serving.  The Hindus pray as a group, not usually including those waiting to be fed.  Personally, I appreciate this.  I don't want to have any religion shoved down my throat by people who can't live what they preach.  I was waiting in line one day and discovered that the food was not on my diet.  Meaning it would make me very sick if I ate it.  One of the church women said to me, from behind the counter, "beggars can't be choosers".  Luckily I knew one of the guys that manage the program that this woman's church group was volunteering for that day and he gave me something else so I didn't have to be hungry that day.  I never saw myself as a beggar.  That put me off and left me angry.  I just needed some food.  My digestive system was a mess so I couldn't eat just anything.  Who do these people think they are?  I used to go to church.  I had someone there quote the bible at me, "God helps those that help themselves".  So, if you're helping yourself, how are you receiving help from outside yourself?  This was in reference to a conversation about bills not getting paid and what it would take to get where I wanted to be.  A safe, clean, quiet apartment.  Again, where's that help coming from if I'm doing it myself?  Doesn't sound like help to me.

Went to a food pantry at a religious center/church.  Before leaving they tell me that they are there to pray with me if I want for anything I might want.  There's a trolley of food, some of it thawing from frozen, sitting in front of me.  I'm in serious pain from my back and tired from not being able to sit while I waited, because of my back, and they want me to stand there holding hands with 2 women I don't know for some unknown period of time and do something I'm not comfortable with.  I said, "Nope I'm good!" And did my best to get out of there as quickly as I could.  It took a lot for me to go there in the first place and it would take extreme circumstance for me to go back.  This was not at a time of homelessness, but still! I'm running out of food and this is what I have to expect from local food pantries. I'm a step away from where I was when I was homeless. I'm stressed about how things are getting paid and where the money/credit is coming from and when/if things will be getting better. And they appeared to expect me to want to pray with them about something. An activity I see as preventing me from getting to a place where I can lie down and get some relief from the pain in my back and a chance to eat something for the first time that day.  If I do go back I know they wont be as welcoming because of it.  I got some strange stares just because of my appearance.  Queer/different folks aren't always accepted into churches and places run by churches for not fitting into their idea of what's OK.  Where do gay and trans-people sleep in a shelter?  And what toilet do they use?  And how much harassment do they have to put up with for being labeled "sinners" by definition?  Anybody out there have local church run shelters that are OK with gay and/or trans people being there without trying to convert/change them?

Grace, the lady who said that to you was not being very nice and Christians aren't supposed to be like that.  The saying, "God helps those who help themselves," is a big fat lie!  It's nowhere in the Bible.  You receive help from God.  No one can help themselves.  You do need help from God because no one is perfect.  Sometimes church people label others because they have done something they consider really bad.  This is completely wrong.  Jesus loved all kinds of people.  He ate with them and healed them and talked to them.  He loves us unconditionally.  He doesn't like our sin at all, but He loves us enough to desire to have a relationship with.  That's what Christianity is.  I'm not out to convert you.  I just want to let you know that God is not out to get you, but He loves you and wants to hold you in His arms.

Grace, the lady who said that to you was not being very nice and Christians aren't supposed to be like that.  The saying, "God helps those who help themselves," is a big fat lie!  It's nowhere in the Bible.  You receive help from God.  No one can help themselves.  You do need help from God because no one is perfect.  Sometimes church people label others because they have done something they consider really bad.  This is completely wrong.  Jesus loved all kinds of people.  He ate with them and healed them and talked to them.  He loves us unconditionally.  He doesn't like our sin at all, but He loves us enough to desire to have a relationship with.  That's what Christianity is.  I'm not out to convert you.  I just want to let you know that God is not out to get you, but He loves you and wants to hold you in His arms.

Bit of trivia, who was the one who actually said "God helps those who help themselves"?

Answer: Benjamin Franklin. Yup, definitely not a Bible quote, although in order for God to help you, you certainly do have to take action.

"God, help me to win the lottery!"
"All right, I will help you win, but meet me half way - buy a ticket!"

While one often must take part in what God has planned for you for it to occur - including his help - one can't help one's self if one has nothing with which to help one's self.  There are situations where quite literally all one can do is wait, hope and pray that God provides what you need.  Been there done that and seen many others go there and do it too so I know quite well it happens even with the best laid plans and having done "all the right things" to avoid such catastrophes.  Like the time I ended up halfway across country, dependent upon the kindness of strangers for, quite literally, everything.  Long story that one and would veer quite off topic, but it sure broke a lot of MY stereotypes about how homelessness happens and about how even my particular situation that led into homelessness occurs.

I wonder if you ever really have been to a Buddhist temple where the offerings to the monks are shared with the lay people and if there is a surplus it is provided to adjacent schools and working people without having to listen to a sermon or convert.

I've been to Thailand Veronika, and I am guessing you are Thai American?

Regardless, I loved watching the Buddhists at play, especial y during one of their many military coups in Bangkok, in particular the coup of 1992, because I was there. Simultaneously there was rioting on the streets of the "city of angels" in good ol' Christian America; I ‘m referring to riots sparked by the acquittal of the four LAPD police officers who brutally beat Rodney King. God bless America!  And oh, how so much has changed in this virtuous Christian nation since, it brings tears to my eyes; I have my hand over my heart as I  type and am humming the American National Anthem.

Such a god blessed nation which  "will hammer their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks, (and) Nation will not lift up sword against nation, And never again will they learn war..." Isaiah 2:4. This is the bible quote they have on a plaque outside the United Nations building in New York.

However, I digress...

Oh the Buddhists, they have done so much to aid the homeless and end poverty in Thailand, along with eradicating the sexual exploitation of pre pubescent girls and boys. What a wonderful religion it is, to have achieved all that, NOT!

PS

Buddhist monks have their way with little boys more often than the Catholic priests!

PPS

Women aren't highly regarded in the true traditions of the Buddhists either, nor are they tolerant of Homosexuals.    Keep the religious away from the vulnerable, all religions are either overtly or covertly trying to gain converts, and if they are not, then they are trying to appease or please the deity of their choice for their own personal gain, however misguided that might be.  And yes, say what you will Veronika, Buddhism is a religion, and Buddha himself has been deified. People truly are sheep, no offence to the sheep.

thank you Tazzie, no I am neither Thai nor American but the issue was if it is fair that homeless and people in need should be forced to listen to some religious sermons as an exchange for badly needed services being offered! As you mentioned it is quite possible to have shelters where people from different belief systems come together to help those who are less fortunate. And as you might agree, religions and/or other belief systems are still man made and thus vulnerable and susceptible to mankind's interpretations and ambitions etc. I have learnt however to focus on what is good and right rather than complain about situations I have no power to change so I have just joined a group of Thai and Expat women, friends from different beliefs to start a Cancer Support Group which will provide free education and support for patients. I believe that it is more worthwhile to just give what you can rather than focus on what should or should not be done...

I can believe that this Crossfire Mission is Christian based because their attitude is the attitude that Jesus exemplified and taught.

It disappoints me extremely to hear that supposedly "Christian" shelters would force people to listen or, down right sinfully, force them to join.

I think, Laura, that comparing getting good grades to feeding your belly is a bit of a bad example. You don't need good grades to be successful in life, you do need food to live.

The point is not of people providing spiritual nourishment to people who need it. It's taking advantage of people in a poor situation and using that situation to further an agenda.

Here's what I'm seeing: "Yup, we got food for ya, and a nice warm place to stay. Ain't that great? I bet yer real hungry ain'tcha? Yeah, 'course you are! And you're gonna eat, to, but first, I'm gonna talk to you about Jesus..."

Note that I'm not talking about legal rules and regs here. Those can be dealt with. It's the religion thing I'm talking about.

Acts of compassion and love should come first, because that's what defines godly people. Feed clothe and shelter people. Once their basic needs are taken care of, then work on their spirit. If they don't want to hear your message, fine. God gave us all free will. We can choose to hear about it or not.

Charity should come without condition. Even if they don't want to hear about God, God loves them anyway, and should be taken care of whether they want to hear it or not.

Besides, as i said earlier, it's easier to deal with your spirit when you're not disctraced by your grumbling tummy.

how do you compare this situation to some schools in the US "recruiting" foreign students for their good cash and forbidding them to wear anything attesting to their belief or their Buddha amulets and forcing them to attend the church services to get the proper grades when their tuition is 10 times what US students would pay?

So you would support diverting all the homeless funding that goes to Christian groups to Islamic and Church of Scientology groups and happily let them preach hope and change to their religion?

At street level - it's not about freedom of religion or freedom of speech. I'm talking about predators.

Why aren't they preying on McDonnalds customers? Why so forcefully preaching to the homeless?

"Diverting" funds? No, not if the Christian programs are effective. This is about EFFICACY. How well do these programs give homeless a leg up towards a self-sufficient lifestyle? That is how they should be judged, that is how funding should be diverted.

And yes, if Scientologists or followers of Islam can be shown by an impartial judge to be helping the most, THAT'S where the money should go.

For the record, I am a Presbyterian and my church founded P.A.T.H. (People Assisting The Homessless) which effectively serves over 10,000 people a year, helping them get their lives back on track in any way they can.

However, people of Islamic faith also have a great tradition of volunteerism (it's written in the Koran), and Scientologists (if you've come any closer to them than the tabloids, as I have) have shown themselves to be one of the most dedicated and effective volunteer groups BAR NONE.

In fact when the Scientologist "Volunteer Ministers" showed up on 9/11 at Ground Zero, at tsunamis and other disasters around the world...they were the only volunteers other than the Red Cross permitted on the front lines because of their focused dedication to handling the problem at hand: they were committed to getting whatever needed to be done DONE. Effective help, period.

So do I think they, in addition to P.A.T.H. and other effective organizations should get funding? HELL YES. And if anyone has a different criteria than EFFICACY when distributing funds....I'd ask them to rethink their priorities and/or predjudices.

Why are the homeless being so forcefully being preached to?  That's a good question for the people doing the preaching.  Being a person with a disability, I think that people who are in any way "not like" the mainstream in any way are at times easy fodder for them.  We are vulnerable, especially when we need something from them.  Dependency creates a very unbalanced power dynamic in any situation.  Who was it that said " any man can live through hard times, but if you want to know the true character of a man, give him power"?

As a fellow person living in poverty and fighting disabilities, I also know this to be a very good question - whether those helping are "christian" or not.  As I stated above, my experience has been that it's as if some "help" the needy not so much to help but to have a chance to judge the needy and how we live our lives.  That's not help, that's condemnation with a little money for the extra helping of pain given to us by those who promised to help.

I've seen stuff like "come here, we'll help" and a plea for a pack of diapers turns into a budget counseling session where they look over up to 3 months budgets with a fine toothed comb - totally ignoring the fact that either the Mom or Dad was just lost a job - and instead of giving a pack of diapers, they give the family a copy of the latest "Christian budgeting book".  I can remember asking one place for help with a utility bill and not only did I have to show the bill, but prove my family size (two) and my entire budget and verify the family income (just my SSDI) but they tried their darnedest to illegally get doctor verification of my disabilities.  Apparently they thought they knew better than the Social Security Admin about whether or not I could work or so was their explanation of the request. However they quickly found out they had no right to said documents even if they did ask.  And yes, I did get help with said bill - and no, they weren't happy about it.  As a side note, this was a church that officially stated that they didn't have a mission to help the poor - it wasn't among their callings.

Dominic,

I think you assume too cynical a view of the homeless. Perhaps it is a minority that are not, but that minority is interested, and it would be just as sinful to withhold the option from the minority as it would be to force the option on those that are not interested.

"It gets annoying though? It's no like homeless people are from Mars. Many of them are Christian in their backgrounds anyway."

I think this raises a good point. There certainly seems to be an attitude of "We're the only Christians in the world, and converting people will bring them out of this situation." Like people who are homeless can't possibly be Christian.

"What the f'k ever I've heard it ten times a day"

And if by some small miracle someone has converted, they don't want the sales pitch again. Bugging someone can make them want to give it up.

Give a man a fish, feed him for a day.

Teach a man to fish, increase your competition.

Unfortunately, that's the way most look at it, though I grant you it is hard to encourage some one to want to learn how to avoid homelessness.

Please tell me how to avoid homelessness? Tell me where I should of signed up for that class? In our case my children and I were in our car when a person without a drivers license or insurance ran a red light and hit us head on. Due to the injuries we were evicted from our apt. and had to qualify for a homeless shelter. When your family or society is not their gor the safety net you will be homeless.

I'd also like to know where this mystic and magical "how to avoid homelessness" class that supposedly works to prevent it can be found.  There are many ways homelessness can find you and bite you squarely in the butt - even when YOU have done NOTHING "wrong" or have at least done everything "right" that you possible could do "right".  Pretending that homelessness is ALWAYS avoidable means PRESUMING that EVERYONE is HONESTLY capable of ALWAYS being prepared for EVERYTHING life might throw at them - including  unexpected catastrophes like long periods of unemployment, sudden illnesses or disabilities, natural disasters, domestic violence, death in the family, economic recessions or depressions, major layoffs, etc. which are ABSOLUTELY NONE of the responsibility of the one who might become homeless and which seldom (if ever) can be seen coming in advance.

What's needed is a WAY OUT OF HOMELESSNESS, as opposed to our current patchwork of systems of inadequate temporary help that rather arbitrarily picks and chooses who it will or won't help leaving thousands to continue suffering.  A system that's set up in a way that is so bad that it expects failure, in many places is set up to create failure - and will kick you to the curb for the slightest hint of even a pause or setback in your path to permanent housing.  Been there, done that. 

Add to that a "safety net" that waits to help till you're so far into poverty that even a change of the wind sets you back for months, a system that repeatedly inspects you - expecting to find fraud and abuse or other criminal activity.  A "safety net" that literally penalizes you for trying to better your situation, such as trying to get a job and become honestly self-sufficient.  A "safety net" that blatantly discriminates against many of those who need the help most - like the disabled.

It's very easy to become homeless despite trying everything not to do so, and once you are it's damned difficult to regain housing.  I'd swear it's easier to win the lottery if you're trying to do it without help from family or a good friend and without going into a situation that involves something akin to selling out your soul.

Danetta and Mary Ann,

I'm sorry I haven't responded. When I read the email updates with your comments, I was all "right-on!" and "the guy that must have asked for these responses must be an inconsiderate bastard." I didn't realize that they were in response to my comment.

I was not assuming that all who are homeless did not want to avoid the situation. I simply made a statement about those who are homeless and did not want to avoid the situation.

I'm sorry that I gave you the impression that I think everyone who is homeless chose to be such, and frankly, I'm a little insulted that you would think that I have such a simple mind to have believed such. You don't know me. As far as you know, I may have been in the same situation at some point. For that matter, who says I'm not homeless now and using an internet enabled cell phone or free wifi on a cheap netbook?

You might want to get that log out of your eye before trying to help me remove the speck out of mine.

The more I think about how you assumed inconsiderate intent into my comment, the more it makes me angry, so I think I'll end this comment here.

Chris, If you knew me I am not the kind of person who goes out of their way tohurt or offend anyone. The average american has the believe that being homelss is a choice. That is what I was reacting to. As far as getting the log out of my eye thisisa site to voice opinions and i in no shape or form was using it to cut you down sorry if you took it wrong. If you are currently homeless I hope that things will be better for you.

Thank you for considering my feelings on the matter. I'm not homeless, however I clearly made my point that you should never make assumptions about a person without knowing more about their situation or personality.

When discussing something, especially online, it is much better to assume the innocence of a child in the others in the conversation. With a child, rather than reacting to their statements, most people consider the fact that the child may not understand your reaction and thus explain the assumptions behind the reaction or seek clarification of the statement before expressing it.

"Be angry, and yet do not sin."

You have yet to state exactly HOW you are going to put your homeless organization out of business. You have yet to state WHAT the causes of homelessness are and how you solve them. You did mention improving the economic, social AND spiritual well-being. Exactly how do those affect the homeless? How do you get the unemployable employed? How do you provide healthcare security so those who are suddenly rendered penniless due to astronomical healthcare costs (such as Mary Ann’s case)? How do you make someone with mental health issues or physical disabilities self-sufficient?

Richard: I was actually responding to the reply of my post right above yours from Chris Meacham.

Your questions deserve a response much more effective then this blog, but in a nutshell here goes:

It's the attitude, the purposeful planning and the meaningful engagement of people and resources around SOLVING homelessness that is first and foremost. Think about if you walked into that shelter and soup kitchen you volunteer in and everyone around you was focused on executing a plan to solve it with those folks? Most soup kitchens and emergency shelters, by their very design, are containment operations, managing the symptoms of homelessness. 

The plan, in our case, recognizes that there are primarily three very distinct and very different set of issues and needs that present themselves at our doors: The Have Not, the Can Not, and the Will Not. Figuring out which one you are working with is very important and requires MUCH in the way of effective intervention and engagement training into each of the three. Each person requires a plan built specifically around their issues and unmet needs. Like a hospital, everyone that enters is sick in some way, but there are many different types of sicknesses, each one requiring a different treatment plan. Society generally treats homelessness like some kind of incurable disease that must be contained and controlled, its symptoms managed. It’s a disaster.

It all starts with the right kind of intervention and engagement strategies. And don’t take this wrong, but most emergency shelters and soup kitchens operate from a reactive model and are poorly equipped both from a training perspective and in the resources they don’t have. They simply are like little clinics on the front line of a catastrophic event...all they can do is slap band aids. And band aids can be good for some, but let’s be honest, they are only band aids.

From a battle planning perspective, the way we approach homelessness is insane. It’s like marching into a battle with pitchforks and axes.

I can answer each and every question you ask and we could have an interesting conversation, but it starts with the recognition that our communities and neighborhoods must develop and execute plans that go way beyond the shelter bed and bowl of soup if we are to have any hope of defeating homelessness in America. And as a little hint, I am NOT saying that the Housing First model in and of itself, is the answer.

Look at history, and you'll find that there were NO organizations helping the poor outside of Christians.  The first time that changed was when America put in place the welfare program.  It has restrictions for receiving benefits.  Are any of you in favor of either 1) removing those restrictions so that anyone can receive welfare, or 2) stopping the welfare program?  No one can make you feel or believe anything.  There's nothing wrong with asking someone to listen to your belief in exchange for giving them the food or shelter they cannot provide for themselves.

I agree with you, Jon, that Christians should not be prevented from proselytizing before or during a meal they are providing nor should any organization be prevented from attaching any strings to their charitable grant. But the homeless and hungry are really a captive audience. They might not have other options available to them. I grant you, some homeless people want a little religion with their meals. It comforts their troubled soul. But some do not want it.

For those of us who think charity should be given without religious dogma, we need to step up to the plate and do the work religious organizations are now doing almost by themselves.

Forcing propaganda on the public and religous bullying are harassment at the very least.  No one has the right to do that.

Though "homeless" is an adjective, when it is used with a plural verb it can be a noun.

The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition copyright ©2000

Thanks Mike, an astute observation on your behalf.

Thanks for replying David. Nice to hear you agree - especially since you were formerly homeless and as such have insight into this topic.

Thanks for posting a reply K L. I don't see the logic in what they were offering either. Nice job getting your own way off the streets.

Your point about housing people rather than just setting them up in a shelter is an important point.

KL is so absolutely dead on.  Nobody wants to help unless you fit into their neat little box and very few (almost no one) gives a rat's rear about helping anyone find their way from any level of shelter into honest to goodness housing.  Even fewer give a rat's rear about helping everyone - most only want to help one group or another that fit into a neat little box and they can get really persnickety about who qualifies for their group's help - male or female only, certain age groups, able to work or not, homeless for certain reasons only, if not able to work only certain reasons for the inability are acceptable, can't need certain accommodations, etc.  And he's definitely right about a lot of the "christian" groups helping the poor and in particular the homeless.  It's clear they care about the soul, but it's so clear they don't care about your body's survival that it feels like they're trying to speed your soul on its journey to its final destination.  It can get creepy.

However, we need to work for making affordable housing - not just shelters - available to everyone.  A lot of the people I know who are homeless are people who started in situations quite similar to mine and as far as I can figure the only reason I'm not homeless right now is the grace of God himself - they're people disabled enough they can't work, often like me with a mix of physical and mental health disabilities and because they receive either SSI only or a low amount of SSDI and it's so hard and so long to get subsidized housing they eventually just couldn't keep their apartments (not hard to imagine when it's common in this income range to pay 50% or so of your income on rent alone).  A lot of people in this group also falls into the many categories of "invisible" homelessness such as living in long term hotels or couch surfing where technically they're homeless but statistically and/or legally they've fallen through a crack and don't count as homeless.  So clearly affordable housing for all is a necessity - and programs like we have here in Seattle that require working and/or a minimum income leave this group (the totally disabled and/or very low income) quite literally out in the cold.

Like it or not, evangelising is a sales job. Why should someone accept God? Why accept Jesus as lord and savior? People need to know.

And the answer is not "so you don't go to hell." That's not a good enough reason. In fact, that's a stupid reason. Especially with all the benefits that come from having a relationship with God.

People need to be told about God. They often won't find him on their own.

wow what a generalization Christianity doesn't teach us to get revenge it teaches us to forgive so those "Christians" wanting revenge on Muslims aren't even going to heaven the bible states that if we hold unforgiveness against anyone we will not inherit the riches of heaven. so thats the dumbest thing ive ever heard, do your research before you try to argue with someone.

Very well stated, Ben Alter. Thank you!

Ben Alter asked "If you are so concerned about Christian service providers, maybe you should provide your own services."

Hey Ben, I do provide my own services and have for several years.

Many Christian service providers operate effectively without evangelizing.

I realize that you provide your own services, Dominic. But how would you like it if someone told you that you were only allowed to donate food to homeless people? You wouldnt be allowed to speak or interact with them in any way when you did so. You might as well just be handing them change on the street as you pass. There is no compassion there. You want to talk with the people youre helping, because you want to make a difference in their lives and see the result.

Its the same for a Christian. The only difference is, God is the most important thing to a Christian. So obviously, a Christian would talk about God. It doesnt have to be about forcing a result, forcing someone to accept God, or forcing someone to adopt a religion. It should just be about helping a human, and in the meanwhile, talking to them and sharing your feelings. Why do you want to silence these people?

and Grace E Graham said "It doesn't say make sure you convert them at the same time..." I never said that either. I am agreeing that requiring compliance with a religion in exchange for food is wrong. But I am saying that if someone offers you something, who would respond with, "As long as you dont talk to me or tell me who you are."? I am not out of line if I tell someone that I am passing along something that was given to me. Maybe someone was kind to me in the past and I am giving you food in honor of them. Or maybe someone gave me true inner peace and I am sharing it with you in honor of them. Is one of those wrong? Are they both wrong? Is it only wrong when the source of my peace is a popular world religion? What kind of standard is that?

Sharing is fine. Forcing your beliefs on others is not. When my government chose to give a large amount of funds that were previously spread out among providers of services, to faith based organizations(by the way, very little of the funds go to non-Christian "faith based"orgs.) they took it away from other human service providers. In buffalo, New York, this leaves other organizations unable to provide services. It would be fine if that left the low income community with a choice about where to go for services. That is not the case. By giving away so much to the "faith based orgs." they have limited the capacity of non-faith based and even some other non-Christian service providers and non-right wing Christian providers to be able to provide services. Of course there is always more need than there are services, so people are basically forced to endure this discrimination or in many cases, go without. What would you do if you were hungry? I have a child. I would endure what ever I had to to keep him from going hungry or living in the street. That doesn't make it right. If I had a choice between taking him to a shelter where he would be treated with dignity or a shelter where he would be made to feel deficient and immoral, I would choose dignity. Unfortunately, the funds have been diverted to places where he must be told that he is morally deficient in order to be fed . Thank the God and Jesus of my understanding that I've never had to take him to a shelter. I'm so grateful for those who have come before me to advocate for poor people's rights. Because of their efforts, I will graduate in a year. I will be able to work and help others. My child is in the gifted and talented program of his school. This is largely due to help from all of those who provided needed services. Many thanks to Early Intervention,Catholic Charities, Jewish family services, his public school(which respects all cultures and religions) and the Head Start Program of Erie County for that! I thank them all for providing services without requiring us to submit to a religious agenda. As far as God goes, my kid knows the important thing. God is love-period!!

The God and Jesus of your understanding? See, this is the reason that I no longer consider myself a Christian. Because Christianity is dying. Everybody thinks that because they feel something, it comes from God and should therefore be incorporated into their religion. And then once everyone goes and creates their own religion, they get mad at "fundamental" Christians who simply follow the direct teachings of the Bible and tell them that just because they like something that the Bible is against, it doesnt mean they should do it. God came from a religion, that began with the Bible. You dont get to make up a person that you would like to hang out with and call them God. If you believe in God, you have to at the very least base your belief in something that you didnt come up with on your own. Otherwise, the only thing you are worshiping is yourself.

I have a child as well. And I do not believe in the Bible as it is written, and am therefore not a Christian. I do not believe in God. But I am willing to accept the fact that maybe God talked to humans at some point. I doubt it, but that is my personal decision and I will not force others to accept my view. I also refuse to compromise by making my own religion. So I take my child to church, one of the few who believes that the Bible is truth given by God and we can not add to it or subtract from it. If she hears and believes, I will be happy to support her. If she decides its a waste of time, I will not force her to go.

But above all, I will not decide for other people what they should believe. I think that people should have a chance to hear Gods message as it is in the Bible, and have a choice to accept it or reject it. But I will never try to silence people who are trying to tell the truth, and I will never tolerate people who think that a contrived religion is as legitimate as all the others. The fact is, either God existed or he didnt. If he existed, his message is in the Bible. If the Bible is not true, then THERE IS NO GOD. If you dont believe in the God of the Bible, stop wasting your time legitimizing your made up religion.