Each person is gifted in a particular manner.  It is those talents that we are to use according to Holy Scripture.  It's not about what religion you are or the works you do.  It's all about G-d's Spirit being alive in you that would draw people to Him (John 6:44).

The Ark Association is a 501(c)3 nonprofit in Detroit, MI.  Our outreach to individuals who are homeless is completely based upon building relationships through expression of G-d's love in action and not words.  This is according to the Word of G-d found in several places.  For examples read Isaiah 58 and Matthew 25 - neither speaks of preaching first.  We pray over the food that is served but do not preach.  We distribute free clothing to the guests at our tables.  Many of our volunteers have been in lines similar to these before.  We have an understanding.  My co-founder, David Kalita, has stated that to reach a hungry man, you must first feed him and satisfy his hunger before his soul is open to hear anything.

Many years ago, while doing street ministry in Dallas, TX, the Holy Spirit enlightened me to exactly what was written.  People will pray or say anything they think you want them to to get want they are requiring that day; whether it be food, fellowship, money, or freedom from guilt and shame.  I was warned not to give out "false hope" and tell them they are "saved" after saying a prayer.  Only G-d knows the heart of man and their true intention.  The Word states our hearts can be so wicked as to decieve even ourselves. WOW!! That's powerful.

Jesus provided the example when He told of the shepherd who would go out after the one.  It is all about the relationship, no matter how long or short it is.  Relationships are about meeting someone, sharing where they are at, and walking with them across the bridge to where they need to go in their journey.  We each have our own path and as we lean not on our own understanding, G-d is faithful to direct our steps (Proverbs 3:5-6).

I used to wonder why people didn't want what I was shoving down their throats.  It grieved me when they would puke it back out in repulsion.  I thought I was doing the right thing.  I wanted them to experience the wondrous love I had received in the gift of salvation through Christ's precious death and the power of His resurrection alive in my life!  I was misinformed by meaningful people in the process.  It's not my job to save... it's not my job to prepare the heart to receive... it is my job to "share" my experience, strength, and hope when asked (I Peter 3:15).

I appreciate the post and increasing the awareness.  Many of the individuals that are homeless have an intimate relationship with the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.  They know Him and He knows their name. Christ came to show us The Way... now we are to walk in it through obedience!

Just an FYI for Simon: In the USA, the state does not support all homeless shelters and, therefore, cannot prohibit the act of proselytizing.  That is why we were started... freedom to express our religion as we see fit!  G-d help those around the world who act in vanity and blasphemy in regards to doing things in "the name of G-d!"  (Spelling is correct and in consideration of Judaic beliefs.)

Organizations have been pushing their religious agendas upon the poor in the US for decades.

Did you know hobos (yes, they were legitimately called hobos) used to call the Salvation Army the "Starvation Army?" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Salvation_Army -

There's a song that pokes at organized religion and preaching to the poor, "The Preacher and the Slave," by Joe Hill (1911).

http://www.pbs.org/wnet/getupstandup/music_preacher2.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Preacher_and_the_Slave

Long-haired preachers come out every night,
Try to tell you what's wrong and what's right;
But when asked how 'bout something to eat
They will answer in voices so sweet
You will eat, bye and bye,
In that glorious land above the sky;
Work and pray, live on hay,
You'll get pie in the sky when you die
And the Starvation Army they play,
And they sing and they clap and they pray,
Till they get all your coin on the drum,
Then they tell you when you're on the bum
Holy Rollers and Jumpers come out
And they holler, they jump and they shout
Give your money to Jesus, they say,
He will cure all diseases today
If you fight hard for children and wife-
Try to get something good in this life-
You're a sinner and bad man, they tell,
When you die you will sure go to hell.
Workingmen of all countries, unite
Side by side we for freedom will fight
When the world and its wealth we have gained
To the grafters we'll sing this refrain
You will eat, bye and bye,
When you've learned how to cook and how to fry;
Chop some wood, 'twill do you good
Then you'll eat in the sweet bye and bye

The chorus is sung in a call and response pattern.

You will eat
[You will eat]
bye and bye
[bye and bye]
In that glorious land above the sky
[Way up high]
Work and pray
[Work and pray]
live on hay
[live on hay]
You'll get pie in the sky when you die
[That's a lie!]

In Australia the Salvation Army is called the Salvos, but yes, they are also called the Starvation Army on the streets. Their services here are less evangelical and more professional typically.

I have been homeless for a little more than a year here in Savannah, Ga., and religion is a dominant theme in almost all services provided to the people of unfortunate circumstances such as I am in. However, policies and personnel of those participating organizations are rarely religiously oriented.

For this thread I will speak to the organization called: Inner City Night Shelter 124 Arnold St., Savannah, GA 31401

They provide dinner for around 100 each night, showers, clothing, and subsidized laundry facilities for poor during the day.

After the dinner is cleaned up, homeless are invited to stay the night, but first on Monday - Friday they are subjected to mandatory religious services (subject to availability of speakers). Without actually promoting their religious affiliations, the speakers are no-doubt Southern Baptists who spend about an hour each evening providing services. Over the past year I have heard over and over again  about the sins of alcohol, drug, tobacco, and homosexuality.

I have seen revival type healings (in chant), heard of the evils of television, and even one speaker (who happens to head the mission) ask God to abort any child of someone who consumes alcohol.

The Mission states frequently that it is "an emergency shelter", even though while we waiting to get let in for services or bed have stood outside in temperatures of 100+, 30-, torrential rains, and through several tornado warnings.

The services and cleanup will almost always push back the final entrance to the shelter past 8pm nightly and sometimes to 9pm, when mandatory showers begin for the 40 + - men who have predominately blankets on the floor to sleep on. Showers (there are two available) may be taken up until 11pm but are usually completed by 10:30.

However, no matter what time the night may end, it begins the next morning 7 days a week at 5am with waking up to bright lights and yelling to get up and get out (by 5:30). It is this policy that I point to specifically when i refer to policies not based on religious fundamentals. The building sits vacant (except for staff) then from 6am (after the cleanup crew finishes) until 9am when showers and laundry services are available. Unless you were absolutely the first person in for the night and rushed through a 5 minute shower hit the floor for bed and fell right asleep, you have no chance at a 8 hour sleep...ever...362 days this year... (there were 3 mornings when they said it was too cold to send us out..(below 30 degrees) and we could sleep in til 6 30 or so on those days).

But back to the topic. I couldn't have put it better in describing the relation between the needs of homeless services and the mandatory religious settings. When Karen Gates suggested that they "puke it back", I agree that to you the passing on of the gifts that are available to the believers such as yourself can be a comfort once in awhile to an individual's soul, and I believe it is not just your duty to God, but to the person you are trying to help to make the religious option available to them, and I applaud you for it. However, from what I read on your post, the people here in Savannah go way beyond that, so far beyond that the mandatory services are an intrusion not only of our time, sleep (which is what we came there for), and religious liberties.

I agree with Charles Donley's observation of his personal experience.  The final line is a powerful posting.  Our whole purpose at The Ark Association is to show God's love in meeting needs as a result of our compassion and we are not a faith-based organization.  Christ never made anyone listen to or follow Him.  He is our example in that He provided for the people's needs, healed when moved by compassion, and laid down His life in love.  He made His faith known and showed how to walk in it. 

Charles Donley's post is exactly why we operate in a different manner.  Our hope is to open the Daniel Doyle Community Resource Center in Detroit.  This facility will have 24 hour access so there is someplace to go during the hours other facilities are closed.  I have also written a program designed to conform to the individuals' needs.  Other programs make the participants conform to their qualifications and agendas.  Too many programs and facilities only tend to the immediate need.  There must be an opportunity to address core issues or the "fix" is only a symptomatic band-aid.

May people of compassion be moved to assist the Charles Donley's of the world with the Love of Christ!!!

I agree with the point of the article but have to agree with Simon that the left hand analogy doesn't work.

I work at two different community meals designed for the homeless, lonely and poor in the community, here in Melbourne, Australia. One meal begins with a very relaxed prayer, the second doesn't. Both are run by Christians (disciples of Jesus - as I am) and the aim of both meals is not to evangelize or proselytize. Both meals were begun because a need was identified to provide a good healthy meal.

Besides the prayer, and the fact that both meals are served in church halls, there are no efforts at all to evangelize, pray or convert our guests.

We do however, strive to provide a meal and safe space for families and individuals who are struggling. Our guests know that the meals are run by Christians and that if requested we will pray with them. Many know when the church meets and yes, we have had many guests come to worship with us.

Our motivation for providing these meals and meeting the need is to live out the love shown to us by God by serving others. This is what drives our guests to come to worship or seek out prayer.

I hear from many of our guests the frustration they have with other meals that show a video or try hard to proselytize before sharing a meal. I also hear the frustration and anger that they have when dealing with both Christian and secular agencies who provide (or not) services, treating these folk as third class citizens, numbers, with problems to tick off on a form.

I am currently wrestling with a post for my blog about the demise of soup kitchens. And yes, that explores the fact that many churches use these provisions as a means of power. In fact, churches that provide meals on the nights we don't are subject to this issue. It is often done because they must be seen to do something, or 'have to" - not for love of these folk.

Lastly, one thing that I come up against constantly when speaking about the meals at churches and other community events, is the stigma that these meals (and the homeless for that matter) have. A stigma from a stereo-type that has emerged from the depression era and fostered by the media.

Great post Dominic and while agree with much of what you write, I argue that there are alternatives, and I am happy to be part of them.

Hey Dom. Great article. I once went to a free dinner that turned out to be served only after we had to sit through a church service. I didn't get a meal because I left and never returned. I've been to other community suppers where the meal was served first and then if I wished, I could stay to attend a service that was not mandatory. I stayed for the service and returned again. I see it as the same as when panhandling and someone holds out a $20 bill and asks, "What are you going to do with this?" My answer, "Keep your f****ng money. I don't need your conditions attached to it." One of the only true benefits of being homeless is FREEDOM and no asshole is going to take that away from me too.

I don't know.

I think it's wrong to require that a person participate in your religion in order to receive help, but this is a religious belief. Jesus helped all and required the ear of no one.

However, that's not to say that He did not speak while He helped. There's nothing wrong with having someone preaching to those in the food line, so long as you do not say that they are required to listen (because they are not). Also, there's nothing wrong with leaving a pamphlet in the jacket that you give to someone as they leave.

Grant you these are my beliefs and they are based on Jesus' example. Unfortunately, there are many out there that claim to follow Jesus but do not practice his teaching or follow his example.

If you have freedom to speak, then you also have freedom to ignore that speech.

The richest nation on earth can bail out billionaires and do nothing for the homeless.  Well if your hungry enough you'll listen to anything and the numbers of the homeless are growing.  Look to Brazil or Russia with their majorities of impoverished citizens to see the future of this country.  Soon you may have to win a lottery before you get your soup and sermon. Religion exists to make the miserable accept their lot and even convince them that they deserve it and that their suffering here will insure them of a place in heaven.

still loud and proud 
as good Americans 
out on the streets 
and under the bridges 
they will dream now 
of cabbages and 
well guarded chickens

© 2009 r c wilson. All rights reserved.

http://groups.google.com/group/bnooz_2007

R.C. Wilson did an excellent job of making a clear distinction between service delivery and an abuse of power. For many faith based organizations their mission is to provide hope through a spiritual message. For most, this message is discreet and communicated through acts of service not a mandatory service. However, there are those organizations who abuse this power by mandating attendance at services or adhering to rules that are meant to force their views on others. In this instance, it is an abuse of power and unacceptable.

what is wrong with the world today. Does noone believe in god anymore. so what if they are tryin to get them to go to their church whats wrong with a little god. i dont care what anyone says their are more documented miracles in the christian religion than in any other. you dont see buddhists or anything like that FEEDIN THE HOMLESS. no because they could care less. religion is not being forced on anyone. It realy makes me sad how this world is being plunged into darkness. i love my jesus and he knows it and it was never forced on me.I tell you what when the antichrist comes then people will see but it will be too late. if anyone wants to debate this please respond i beg you.

Dear Daniel, that's nice, but if it wasn't forced on you then you weren't hungry, cold, and desperate. That's not what is being discussed here. You are mising the whole point.

It a bit insensitive to use food to get people to something they wouldn't do otherwise. It's not about god or religion, it's about being oblivious to how there is an imbalance of power between those who have the food and those who need it.

Great diligence and respect is the responsibility of those who have the power and resources. Some over-enthusiastic and well-meaning people clearly lack that humility, sensitivity, and respect.

Great article....I've been homeless and I can tell you that it's through the people surrounding you where change (and end to homelessness) occurs.  In my community my son and I were placed in an interfaith shelter (going from church to church) and it was the united care and compassion that helped me to awaken to my own truth and spiritual connection -- it is through the oneness we all share that miracles happen and lives are changed -- not the dogmas or traditions of specific faiths or beliefs.

I think this whole situation is something I've been saying for years: religious types in general are extremely poor sales people. Somehow, they have it in their head that having a captive audience is the best way to get conversions. I don't understand the logic, but there it is.

As I said elsewhere here, it's hard to think of making a decision to convert when all you can think about is where your next bit of food is going to come from.

I attended a homeless shelter in Denver (sorry, don't remember the name) where there was a lengthy service before you could look for cots or food. Since I'm used to fasting during mass/service (I do that as a spiritual cleansing), it wasn't so bad for me (and I got a lot out of it), but I could tell a lot of the people around me weren't having it. They wanted food and shelter post-haste, not a sermon.

The main problem I had with the shelter was that you had to have a card to get the preferred treatment. Me and about five others got held back while everybody else in the room went in and they had their cards. I wasn't a Denver resident at the time (still ain't, although I'd like to change that), so I didn't have all the proper paperwork or whatever they wanted. I'm amazed I got any food (although I'm grateful for what I got). Because of being held back, I didn't get a cot. However, the bus terminal was warm.

Two good things I've seen that don't do this practice are Hare Krishna Food for Life in Denver and Crossfire Mission in Colorado Springs, both in Colorado. Food for Life is done in a public park and the monks don't make you sit through any sermons; they just give you the wonderful food they they, themselves, prepare. They make the food for God first, so they take great care to make it quality. 

Crossfire Mission at the corner of Platte and Union in Colorado Springs is Christian owned and operated, but all you have to have is ID and social security cards for everyone in your family getting benefits. This isn't a shelter as much as a food pantry. They have Bibles and other literature if you want it, but they won't preach to you. They're also the second largest food pantry in the city now. Hmm...

 I dont see any  more abuse of power then in the rest of other social institutions. For example why should a student be forced to listen and agree with some professors view point to get a good grade? Why should a homeless guy or any one else in public assistance be forced to follow some guidelines and rules? Why should a guy that comes to Dominic or other social worker be forced to listen to his boring lecture on making better choicesm yada, yada when  they dont want to change their life styles. I think faith based organizations are looking at the problem as a whole and addressing the spiritual, and physical needs of the individual.  I am not sure why the author harbors so much bitterness towards christian based groups. I feel very strongly about the abuse of power by any person in particular specially social services agencies and governmental  organizations.

Dominic,

In answer to your hypothetical about whether I'd want an Islam of Church of Scientology service provider who was showing me grace and kindness to be funded, even if they had some kind of message that came with the food, I would answer: ABSOLUTELY.

We live in a world of largely increasing materialism and selfishness. Religions get a bad rap because of ignorant and violent extremists, but let's take a clearer look here. Religions are also still the primary ambassadors of hope, morality, grace, and love for our fellow man that exist in the world.

I say that if you're sitting there getting a handout or a hand up from someone, and they happen to talk about something spiritual that has helped them, just quit being so damn sensitive, smile and thank them. Cause guess what? They're out there on the front lines DOING SOMETHING about it. And you know...that message of spirituality (whatever form it comes in), is often EXACTLY what that person needs to see a picture bigger than themselves and get the courage to give life another go.

And hey, if anybody doesn't like that, they can get off their rear and start an agnostic, atheist, or non-religious group of their own to help out.

Help is help. There are bigger battles than this, my friend.We need to pull together to help MORE people, not bicker amongst ourselves about this trivial shit.

Unfortunately, the previous comment about the fact that sometimes religious evangelism becomes coercive is true, although I believe it is the exception rather than the rule.  Any organization refusing food or other services to the poor unless they participate in some religious activity is wrong surely.  But I see nothing wrong with an optional message.  As a Christian, I know that these service providers only care for these people and want to help, and the biggest help they can give is to tell them about the saving power of Christ.  And let us not cross the line of restricting free speech. As I said, mandatory religious services or likewise is going too far perhaps, but there is nothing wrong with starting up a conversation with anybody, homeless or not, about something you believe will help them.  I have the right to tell anyone I meet on the street about my salvation, and they have the equal right to ignore me.  Christians should not push their beliefs onto other people but as long as manners are observed, there is nothing that is inherently wrong in the practice of offering optional religious counseling. And i completely agree with the statement previously made saying (paraphrased) that acts of love and compassion define godly people.  If we refuse that, we are in fact working against god's will.  As Jesus said, "I was naked and you clothed me....I was hungry and you fed me" and "What you do to the least of these, you do to me."

There is much truth to your article, as I don't think Jesus intended religion and power, but love.  I am now a mom and new grandmother, but about 35 years ago I found myself a homeless young teenager.  I did find myself hungry and did end up getting meals from a Christian group.  They were not pushy or "religious" and they really did plant that seed that later developed into my faith today.  I believe there are many meaningful people who give up their time and resources to meet the needs of those less fortunate.  The key is in relationship, as Jesus portrayed.  Meeting needs should come naturally to Jesus' followers, and we don't necessarily have to sign up at a soup kitchen.  Look around and you will see needs.  Love motivated Jesus and should be ours as well.

 31"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. 32All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

 34"Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'

 37"Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'

 40"The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'

Aloha!

It gets annoying though? It's no like homeless people are from Mars. Many of them are Christian in their backgrounds anyway.

It gets annoying and predictable and lame.

Hey I need (a.) Wonderful, let me tell you about Jesus so I can meet my needs.

What the f'k ever I've heard it ten times a day.. do your preaching thing so I can get a feed or a night's sleep. Even better just give me a break.

Meet your needs, I'm patient. Then because I'm the great unwashed I'll wait till you are done then you can provide the service you provide thanks be to whoever so I can survive day to day.

19 years being on the frontline of battling the effects of homelessness on people and communities and I can say it comes down to one simple (not easy) solution: You need a plan based on core values of solving this thing instead of containing it. The type of evangelism that Dominic speaks of is about as effective as a candy striper volunteer in your local hospital going into the emergercy waiting room and offering a magazine to a very sick swine fu victim.

Evangelism wont work unless it is LIFESTYLE Evangelism built around a real committment to the improving the economic, social AND spritual well being for both the homeless person and the community. That's bad news for all you "Drive By Evangelists". This means that if you really want to make a REAL impact on the person and the community, you MUST devote significant time around working with BOTH by providing ACCESS to PERMANENT Solutions.

We have a homeless epidemic not because of the shortage of people wanting to help, but because most of that help is in the form of driveby volunteerism and investments into battle plans that CANT WIN. It would be like your local hospital using candystripers to run around comforting people with hugs and magazines while they lie there on a morphine drip. The real root problems dont get solved and people die. That is what happens every day in America. We throw BILLIONS of dollars at this problem, yet more people die from the effects of homelessness than EVER BEFORE in our history.

After 19 years and tens of thousands of interactions with people aorund this social crisis, I've learned a few of things. 1) Homelessness is a solvable condition. 2) We aren't solving it. 3) The reason why is because most communities get caught up in developing and supporting plans around access to temporary solutions instead of access to permanent solutions. Its a really poor battle plan.

The way I look at it is, what have I done today to put my homeless organization out of business. Solving it means less shetler beds and soup kitchens, not more. Healthy folks living in their own place, shopping at the local supermarket is my crazy pipedream.

Since Im addicted to solving unsolvable social problems with no money and no good looks, I'll go solve gangs or some other tough social problem or maybe just write that book...

The assistant director of a shelter in Wyoming told me that the only way a homeless person could get off the streets was to accept Jesus Christ. I disagree. While religion may be the balm that brings focus in some few cases, in most cases homeless people just play along for what favors that might bring.

Self respect on the other hand can lead to real changes. So how does a person with low self-esteem gain self respect? Not by being told that they are a sinner. That adds insult to injury. Only by respecting them for who they are right now. Respect is a lot like understanding and if the shelter staff have never walked in the homeless person's shoes they are very unlikely to have understanding. They interact with thousands of homeless people and still will never know until they have been there themselves.

I appreciate this article. I work and go to school. Self-sufficiently homeless, I do not seek services. When I moved into a van, an evangelist essentially became a creepy-stalker. I can forgive, but that does not exonerate nor enlighten that evangelist.

My experience is somewhat different than yours, Dominic Mapstone. I have never been homeless but for the last three years I have been volunteering at a local free breakfast program and at the local homeless shelter. The shelter is a non-religious, private non-profit organization but almost all the volunteers are from various religious organizations. A local church and its members run the free breakfast program.

I have never seen any proselytizing of the guests at either place. I think it is only natural to be exposed to their beliefs by just being around them. Their religious influence is subliminal. This should be expected. As an atheist, I am respectful of their different beliefs.

I think the solution to this religious influence is that non-religious organizations and atheists like myself need to get involved in the homeless and hunger problem that affects our communities.

I have a concern with what was expressed in this article.

When you restrict what a privately funded organization can say you could infringe on the religious rights of the organization and the people serving in that organization.  Evangelism/proselytizing are an integral part of many faiths.  Forbidding them from evangelizing would be a violation of religious freedoms.  Please be mindful of the serving individual's rights.

I am formerly homeless, a poor people's advocate and a preacher's kid.  The sad thing about forced religion before serves rendered is how they totally miss the point.  You have to be Jesus like in order for someone to seek to know Jesus through any so-called ministry.  Most MISSIONs, have no clue as to who He is.  Kicking a dog when they are already down is a far cry from Christianty. 

I have known people who were put out of programs because their beliefs were different, their Bible was different, or their resonse, which was real, was viewed as being wrong and not accepted by them.

I have witnessed people being put out doors in the middle of the night because their mental health issues were not silent sufferings. And have seen women with bad hips or in wheel chairs sleep on pews for lack of handicap access to a bed.

The judgement of how they preach to us is bad.  They assume we are all destined for Hell and Homelessness is punishment for bad choices.  He who is without sin let him cast the first stone.  Prayers should be silent and actions still speak loulder than words.  Being nice to people costs nothing.  In our House of Pain there is nothing like Jesus.

There are inklings of hope for some in charge of some programs but for many it has become just a job and helping does not enter into the picture at all. 

Why had people rather sleep under a bridge than go to the Mission?  There is more dignity under the bridge. 

To Bob Price - restrictions should be placed on religions where they conflict with ethics, fairness, social justice, and laws.  I am opposes to polygamy, especially when it involves minor females, no matter if some horny old men consider it god's law.  I am opposed to religions getting exceptions on using illegal narcotics as part of their ceremonies.  I am opposed to forcing religion on vulnerable people.  I am opposed to health providers refusing services to people based on their religious beliefs.

To Dominic - I have been involved in social work and social justice issues in the American Deep South for decades.  I have spent the last four years dealing with the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina in my own community.  We have had many faith-based groups come down here to help out.  I have respect for very few of them.  I will not go in to detail here, but I have been appalled at their lack of professionalism and their commitment to proselytising (we didn't come down here to hang sheetrock, we came to save souls). In the case of some of the larger, more established religious charities, I have been appalled at their lack of ethics.  Faith-based federal government grants have made them cash hogs.  I think that any federal funding of faith-based groups is actually a subsidy of religion, as it frees up church generated funds to go to non-charity related projects.  I was part of a pilot program to bring experienced disaster case managers in to a major natural disaster very early after it happened.  The lead partner in the program implementation was a national, faith-based charity. One you are probably know well given your faith.  They were inept and corrupt.  It left a very bitter taste in a lot of peoples mouths.

The only faith groups I have immense respect for after Katrina are the Amish, some Mennonites, Quakers, Buddhists and Jewish relief organizations.  They have come down, worked hard, worked well, and have either stayed to themselves or left people's faith alone.

As you seem to think that faith-bases charities should not put their faith front and center before the needs of the people you are serving, what would you do if a teen-aged woman who was raped by her father came to you and said she was pregnant and would like to get an abortion?  Would you consider this as one of her options as you counsel her?

I serve at Community Life COGIC in Canton, Ohio. The folks are very generous in their service to the poor. They always have someone "preach" for 30 to 40 minutes while the food (set out fully prepared at 10 AM) is allowed to cool (even tho we have candles underneath the food trays). They advertise Breakfast at 10 but it's rarely before 10:30. They are sincere. They think the poor NEED to be preached to. I've actually heard a preacher tell the poor and homel;ess: You are here because God wants you here. They are kind, generous people. I just think they simply don'e get it.

Mims Carter asked "As you seem to think that faith-bases charities should not put their faith front and center before the needs of the people you are serving, what would you do if a teen-aged woman who was raped by her father came to you and said she was pregnant and would like to get an abortion?  Would you consider this as one of her options as you counsel her?"

I would have no problem with any client following the course they believe to be best for them, regardless if I would do differently in my life. It's about them, it's not about me.

If they were after spiritual direction. I would suggest they contact their faith community of origin for guidance.

Thanks to everyone for a fascinating conversation.  As a former shelter worker (homeless and battered women), and presently a homebound disabled person in a rural area, I have some background in the topic.  The county where I live refuses to provide food bank delivery or transportation to disabled shut ins.  So, I have gone for months at times without access to food.  A few times (or less) in the twelve years I've been disabled local churches have brought food for me.  And sermons.  I will never forget the time a church volunteer brought a box of food and after setting it on the kitchen counter she went through the box to see if there was anything that she wanted and took out a box of muffin mix.  She was going to take it and then read the directions, decided it would be too much work and then put it back.  I have been absolutely shocked at the one-up gamesmanship in interpersonal interactions that most people take when dealing with homeless and disabled people.  As far as churches- they are a business and funding is the bottom line.  That changes everything.  Clearly, it's an abuse of power anytime there's a power difference and the powerful force their ideas on the less powerful.  For a religion to do that makes them a fraud.  They are doing the opposite of what Christ, Buddha, etc. taught.  However, I have a part in all of this, too.  I have the choice to not seek their assistance or seek their help knowing that I will have to put up with the sermons, "holier than thou" attitudes, etc.  There's no free lunch.  I do not agree that their tactics are right, but I understand where they are coming from.  They are after their funding.  A pastor's column in a local paper recently asked if it is still "God's work" (church volunteering) if it is done begrudgingly.  My answer is "no".  When church volunteers help others while they have evil in their hearts, it is a perversion.  To call it anything else is fraud.  To pretend to be doing good while seeking power, money, etc. must certainly be the lowest possible.  And, to pretend to be a spiritually strong person while following the devil is begging for a one way ticket to hell.

It is about them, not us.  That is the attitude I hear a lot, but don't see practiced enough at Catholic Charities U.S. and other faith-based service agencies.  To be fair, a lot of secular agencies have supervisors and case workers who try to impose their world views on people with needs.  

Excellent item!  Why do religious people "evangelise" folk who are inadequately housed or without housing ('homeless' is not a noun) or hungry, experience poverty or struggle with low incomes? 

The evangelising should be directed at those who have committed the sin of Sodom as clearly stated in Ezekiel 16:49 "Behold, this was the guilt of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had pride, surfeit of food, and prosperous ease, but did not aid the poor and needy."

Maybe it makes them feel superior.  Maybe those who desparately need to feel superior have unquenchable egos.  The fake superiority is a smoke screen, maybe, so that others don't see who they really are.  Or maybe they're looking for a cheap ride to heaven instead of doing the real work.  You know, talking the talk but not walking the walk.  But, at least some of them are trying to do the right thing and that's a whole lot more than lots of folks.  I try to keep an open mind and realize that they need my compassion.  Some of them don't know any better.

And what could be worse then evangelizing them? Criminalizing them.  

Los Angeles accused of criminalizing homelessness
Tue Jul 14, 2009 10:51pm EDT

By Steve Gorman

http://www.reuters.com/article/domesticNews/idUSTRE56E0MC20090715

LOS ANGELES (Reuters) - Two major advocacy groups for the homeless on Tuesday ranked Los Angeles as the "meanest" city in the United States, citing a Skid Row police crackdown they say has criminalized poverty and homelessness there.

L.A.'s so-called Safer City Initiative was singled out in the groups' report as the most egregious example of policies and practices nationwide that essentially punish people for failing to have a roof over their heads.

Others include making it illegal to sleep, sit or store personal belongings on sidewalks and other public spaces; prohibitions against panhandling or begging; and selective enforcement of petty offenses like jaywalking and loitering.

Such measures are widespread in the face of a deep economic recession and foreclosure crisis that have increased homelessness over the past two years, according to the National Law Center on Homelessness & Poverty and the National Coalition for the Homeless.

Their report examined laws and practices in 273 cities across the country, with Los Angeles topping the list of the 10 "meanest cities" for what the study called inhumane treatment of homeless. A previous report, issued in early 2006 before the crackdown began, ranked L.A. as the 18th meanest.

Under the Safer City effort, thousands of L.A.'s most destitute residents have been targeted for harsh police enforcement, routinely receiving tickets for minor infractions such as the failure to obey crossing signals.

As a result, the study says, many are jailed and end up with a criminal record that makes it more difficult for them to find a job or gain access to housing.

A spokesman for Mayor Antonio Villaraigosa issued a statement dismissing the report as "short-sighted and misleading."

Los Angeles officials have touted their Safer City effort for sharply curbing serious crime in Skid Row, a 50-block downtown area inhabited by the biggest concentration of homeless people in the country. "The city's first priority is to protect our most vulnerable residents from violent crime," the mayor's statement said.

But homeless advocates say a promised strategy to ease homelessness there, including new housing and services to go with the Skid Row cleanup, have largely failed to materialize.

An estimated 40,000 people live on the streets, in abandoned buildings or in temporary shelters throughout Los Angeles, more than 5,000 of them in Skid Row. Another 8,000 make their home in that area's short-term residential hotels, or flop houses as they were once called.

Becky Dennison, co-director of the Los Angeles Community Action Network, said the homeless population in Los Angeles has ballooned due to a lack of affordable housing, a high poverty rate and "long-standing lack of local resources."

Tuesday's report cited a 2007 University of California study that found L.A. was spending $6 million a year to pay for the 50 extra police officers who patrol Skid Row while budgeting just $5.7 million for homeless services.

By comparison, Dennison said, New York City has a "right to shelter" policy and invests about $200 million a year in housing and other services for the needy, resulting in a homeless population half that of Los Angeles.

© Thomson Reuters 2009 All rights reserved

still loud and proud 
as good Americans 
out on the streets 
and under the bridges 
they will dream now 
of cabbages and 
well guarded chickens

© 2009 r c wilson. All rights reserved.

http://groups.google.com/group/bnooz_2007

Simon tried to make the point (above) that "belief isn't a world view that's right for some people and not for others - it's a matter more important than life and death."

However, his attempt fails, in fact it actually supports your arguments when you said:

"I wonder if some of these services are just a disguise and the principal agenda has nothing to do with what homeless people want, but what the religious group wants."

Simon's comment precisely demonstrates your point that it's more about what the religious group wants than what homeless people want! He intimates, in effect that, as a matter of life and death, 'religious beliefs' are more important than what the people being helped need or want for themselves.

That comment also seems to assume that only 'religious people' have beliefs! LOL! 

As if it gives 'religious people' the right (nay, the duty!) to bait and to trick the heathen masses into finding "salvation". (Another version of this class of trickery are the nondescript, ostensibly 'public service' commercials you see on TV that are actually sponsored by the Latter Day Saints!)

There is far, far too much double-speak and outright deception engaged in by organized religions! I, for one, refuse to believe that any "God" (or "G-d" <= I'm sorry, but this is so silly!) would condone the carrot-and-stick antics that these wolves in sheep's clothing perpetrate on the weak and needy everyday under the guise of "helping" in his name! This is one of the many reasons why organized religion will never be for me! (I guess I'm out of luck if I ever become homeless!!!)

I was homeless for a period of time when I was around 19 years old. At the time I stayed at a rescue mission in my hometown. They required you to attend services and participate in activities including working at either the mission or the second hand store that they operated. I can't remember how exactly I felt at the time regarding these things, but I do know that I eventually got out of there after about 2 or 3 months and ended up getting my own place. It was a terrible time in my life overall and not one I ever wish to experience again.

As to your post about evangelizing the homeless, I agree you can't force religion on people especially when they are in a situation where they are in need. It is manipulative in a way and not in keeping with what Christ himself would do.

Just as an aside, I'm not a deeply religious person and never have been. I believe in God and that things happen for a reason (even though we may not see why).

I've just begun a three month stay in Togo. I find that it is a deeply supersticious country. It is also very poor. I like the people but the breakdown of 50% blackmagic, 40% Christian and a rising 10% Muslim doesn't leave much room for a humanist. I have been writing a lot in the past three years (www.soletthedebatesbegin.com) and my research shows the old testament to be a deeply offensive book. Jesus seems to have been a good person but the various churches are a tavesty of his teachings. When I worked with the Campaign for Homeless And Rootless, in London we often said how homelessness was seen as something to apologise for and grovel for help. It isn't like that.

Brian Haddon.

The way I've always done it - and always insisted that people working with me do it - is to give it freely without words of any sort about religion.   HOWEVER, I and anyone working with me make a concerted effort to be cheerful and without despite any circumstances (and circumstances can get quite interesting - like summer heat in a housing project with the gang members coming out to see who's doing what).  We also keep a rule that if anyone asks why we're doing what we're doing, at that point we give the honest answer - that it's because one of the things the Lord requires of us is to help others with whatever we may have.  Sometimes that's all that's said, and people will pretty much roll their eyes and walk away.  Other times, people (and sometimes it's some of the most surprising people) will stick around for conversations or to at least ask a few questions - whether or not they do is entirely left to them, even asking why we're there is up to them.  We don't wear religious identification, we don't listen to religious music, sing religious songs, give sermons, read Bible verses, or even stick tracts in stuff we hand out.  

As a side note, many have eventually stated things about learning more from us about Christ and what he's really like or what he really wants people to be like than from any of the many other groups in the area that force you to endure a lesson of some sort to get the desired or needed help.  Many of those groups, as noted above have an air of coldness or even cruelty.  Sadly, this has been the way churches here in the U.S. have often done things going back at least to their dealings with the Native Americans - no wonder Christians aren't respected. If you want to help, help.  If you want to evangelize, evangelize.  But quit holding people captive to sit through one just to get to the other.  That's twisted and not what Jesus taught.

There are a great number of people who do not feel capable of managing their corner of life and only consider themselves competent when they have the guidance of a dominant being to guide them. That god who took the Israelites to the promised land is the best image to fill this requirement. That makes their lives safe and happy and I fully understand they can be comfortable.

Some of those people have little doubts when they begin to understand science and it's requirement for truth. That little doubt and the requirement to revere the ten commandments causes their need to proselytize.Then they also get everlasting life.

Those who accept evolution, want better ethics than the Ten Commandments, responsibility for every other citizen under our constitution of Participatory Democracy. Our government is requirred to do for it's ciltisens what they cannot do for themselves. that includes care for homeless with no preaching or prayers.

People have the right to hold to religious beliefs.  That they do, doesn't mean they're "not capable" of managing their life as a whole or any part of it.  Nor does holding to religious beliefs mean that they feel incapable of holding to managing their life.  It could be tradition, comfort or any of myriad other reasons.

Science purports to be only truth, to "require truth" and pursues the truth and yet must of it is still purely theories in search of the proof necessary to make them fact.  Thus, in many ways, much of science is quite a bit like religion - faith in an idea in hopes that the idea might prove true.

Nor is any one set of morals or ethics any "better" than another, as long as certain basics (like not committing theft or murder are included along with keeping some concern for those around you rather than just yourself) and people are actually FOLLOWING their morals and ethics.

Where we get into trouble is where we start withholding help on the grounds of "but you wouldn't convert" or "you HAVE to put up with a sermon of my choice".  Or on the other hand, when we start telling people that any and all religion is so patently offensive that it's forbidden.  True, it's offensive (and is so even in at least Christian texts) to force religion on people as a condition of providing help via basic necessities, but there's no reason why religion needs to be kept in a darkened closet and treated as if it makes a person akin to a neanderthan either.  A person can be an insensitive jerk with or without religion.

Dominic, I see your point.  However, I'd like to say that practicing tolerance on all fronts is important.  Treating everyone with respect, not just the homeless population, is important.  Doing so without unleashing even a smidgeon of our own personal agendas (as  you showcased by writing this article, and as I undoubetdly will in the course of my response) is nearly impossible.   

Where do we find tolerance or compassion for those who mean well with their actions, but just don't seem to be going about it in the most effective manner?  Maybe those are the people we should be helping and educating, instead of criticizing.  Maybe in their ignorance, they don't realize the abusive nature of it.  I highly doubt giving homeless people ways to passive agressively, or negatively take back power will solve the problem.

I find it hopeful that people/organizations of all kinds, religious or not, are trying to reach out to those they perceive as less fortunate.  I certainly don't expect all of them to handle it perfectly for everyone, as we are all different.  But is it fair to say that they might reach someone? 

No person or organization will ever handle the masses effectively - we're a kaleidescope of personalities.  But as individuals, if we have an enlightened perspective on a specific scene due to our own experiences, I wonder if a more effective method of change would be for us to show a loving willingness toward educating those who want to provide a service to that specific genre, but lack the sharpest tools for the job. 

If we spend our time ridiculing those we believe are governing a situation abusively, aren't we feeding them the same bitter pill?  I know if someone shows me love when trying to educate me, I respond much more openly to change. 

I must call BS. I was homeless for two years. No one really cared. NO ONE. To the "advocates" I was just another body to count for dollars -  IF I quit the job I had at the time, they would "help" me. I also happened to be disabled. Quitting my job to get "help" in the form of SSDI would have amounted to a 60% cut in pay, and eight plus years in a shelter. I was simply seen as $$$$ to these so called advocates. Neither Church nor Synagogue gave a rat's @$$. Not one. 

Evangelizing? I observed how they merely wanted to "save" the Soul and to Hell with the body. 

I got myself out of my situation. No one helped, because no one cared enough to help me find affordable housing, because of the money they'd lose warehousing me. Want to help? GET THE WORKING HOMELESS INTO HOUSING - NOT IN A SHELTER. 

I am homeless. This is not a problem. I work. I pay taxes. Taxation is a forced philanthropy, so that churches can get financial breaks and the auto industry can get bailouts. Those poor structure-dwellers need it, I guess.

I'm not an expert on homelessness, so forgive me if I offend anyone, but I wanted to make a couple points:

First, there's a debate here about what money is spent on and who decides. It's been framed in terms of "choice," and it's true that all have free choice, but _some_ people do manipulate others to support their choices, and _some_ people under addictions can't help themselves. I've had times where someone has told me they were hungry, but then turned down food, or had a headache, but turned down tylenol, saying they needed money instead. Since I didn't have money, they left without the food and painkillers, and tried to make me feel guilty for it. So I can understand the cynical people who want to know what their money is going for.

Second, the religious issue is obviously a hot button. I absolutely agree that it is an abuse of power to force religion on people, or to withhold services because of people's beliefs or because of their unwillingness to participate in religious activities. That's criminal, and not at all defensible even under the religion they profess.

On the other hand, I don't think it's an inherent abuse of power to share your beliefs in addition to food or basic necessities. It obviously can be, but it ain't necessarily so. If you are a religious person, and your faith is the greatest and most important thing in the world to you, of course you want to share it.

I know many will disagree, but try to think of it from the perspective of a person who truly believes that your life is in danger in this world or the next, simply because you haven't rightly understood God. Can you see how if someone believed that, they would want to share spiritual life in addition to physical life? But there can be no cumpulsion in religion, and that's where too many people get in trouble.

My buddy and I have both been homeless. He went to dozens of church programs and homeless shelters. He told me about the one where he sat there reading the bible every day and memorized two verses a week just for the opportunity to be able to go out to the store. (they bought him cigarettes for being a good bible student) When he no longer needed the religious study to gain a tiny amount of dignity, the whole thing just went in the trash.

I on the other hand avoided shelters like the plague. I spent about 6 years homeless on the road. I didn't read the bible but I led a very spiritual life. I woke up in the mornings and chanted, "Thank you for this day oh Lord. Thank you for this day. This healing, this healing, this healing day." It put me in a good mood. Thereby making me good company to the people I met and since they then cared they invariably helped without even a request. I did not beg borrow or steal. In between rides I would chant, "We are all angels traveling in this universe. Love, love, love will heal us." and found myself filled with love and cared for by each and every stranger I met. I had little if anything yet I was a stranger to want. My thoughts were sort of like, "If it be your will, here I am with love in my heart."

My experiences and spiritual discoveries are still with me. I was saved and not by Jesus even though Jesus did come in my heart. My buddy on the other hand used up his time at each of the programs he participated in and went straight back to the streets and straight back to the bottle and crack pipe. Every time.

My point is that my friend is now a property owner with a decent job and almost everything he wants. He didn't get there from any of the religious programs. He got there because I layed it on the line for him. I told him that all he had to do was to first know what he wanted, then picture himself there. I said among other things, "picture yourself in your apartment sitting at the kitchen table eating some potatoes you just cooked. Even smell them." I also told him, "Look, you have next to no money so if you take 10% of that and squirrel it away you'll still have next to no money but you will have something to work with." This was probably the first practical advice he had ever received from a shelter worker and it was effective too. And he wasn't the only one. My advice, coming from me, changed their lives. There was no Jesus in it. (except that part of Him in my heart telling me, "Don't mention Me. Just be the Love.")

One other thing this article makes me think of is this: What if Jesus himself came into your shelter cold, tired, and hungry? Look your clients in the eye. They might have a message from God for you. This should apply to secular shelters also.

There is a secular shelter in Iowa where the director will not look a homeless man in the eye, he keeps an extremely unsanitary kitchen, and serves improperly heated, "better than nothing",  food. The shelter is a den of disease with antibiotic resistant bacteria and scabies rampant. There are no warnings for shelter workers, volunteers, or clients. My point is that shelter staff should take the splinters out of their own eyes before assuming that their clients are any worse sinners than they are.

"sell religion" is the worst phrase i have ever heard. Most evangelist christians I know don't even HAVE a religion, it's a relationship with our creator, and the intent is most certainly not to "sell" anything trying to save someone from hell,? oh gee sorry for trying to help. If your homeless and accepting hand outs get over it, if they had accepted christ and were following him they would be provided for by him and not be homeless in the 1st place, unless that is what Gods plan for them is, but then they would already be walking with Christ and not care about someone talking to them about God! I swear some people are so lost and stupid it's scary. I think you all should just go back to talking about something else worthless and stupid like "brangelina". America was founded so that we would have the freedom to practice whatever "religion" (for lack of a better word you nitwits would understand) we want. Why does everyone all of a sudden have a problem with christianity??? Why not focus on conservative muslims who beat their wives??? at least Christianity teaches people to love and forgive not hate and get revenge!

"sell religion" is the worst phrase i have ever heard. Most evangelist christians I know don't even HAVE a religion, it's a relationship with our creator, and the intent is most certainly not to "sell" anything trying to save someone from hell,? oh gee sorry for trying to help. If your homeless and accepting hand outs get over it, if they had accepted christ and were following him they would be provided for by him and not be homeless in the 1st place, unless that is what Gods plan for them is, but then they would already be walking with Christ and not care about someone talking to them about God! I swear some people are so lost and stupid it's scary. I think you all should just go back to talking about something else worthless and stupid like "brangelina". America was founded so that we would have the freedom to practice whatever "religion" (for lack of a better word you nitwits would understand) we want. Why does everyone all of a sudden have a problem with christianity??? Why not focus on conservative muslims who beat their wives??? at least Christianity teaches people to love and forgive not hate and get revenge!

Drivel from Drivdahl "at least Christianity teaches people to love and forgive not hate and get revenge!" I suppose if I counted all the Christians in America who hated Muslims and wanted revenge it would only take one hand... It's millions Anne. millions of Christians in America HATE and want REVENGE! But I suppose those aren't really Christians are they.

I have run a homeless feeding program that also provides help for housing and other life necessities. We are Jewish based and NEVER prosthelytize and we help any one who knocks on our door. So your point is?

Yes there are some organizations who do preech, but maybe the homeless are a "captive" audeince, so that is sad. Still, the only service providers in downtown Los Angeles(the largest homeless population in the country) are christian based and do a lot of preeeching, so that is a sad situation to me and there sould be a moral obligation from the state to provide services for the homeless.

I was once in a class where the professor said that more people have been killed in the name of religion than for any other cause.

What is wrong with sharing your religion with others? Isnt that freedom of expression? I have never heard of an institution requiring a person to accept a religion before they are helped. This is extremist language that makes it sound like homeless people have to be baptised before they can eat a free meal. I dont see any problem with someone sharing with a homeless person their motivation for wanting to help fellow humans.

If you are so concerned about Christian service providers, maybe you should provide your own services. Christians have an interest in spreading their message. When someone offers me a free cruise or laptop, I know that there is probably a timeshare presentation in my future. Its the nature of free things.

I think that requiring someone to attend church before they can have a meal is wrong, but if someone offers me a free bed and food, I would be happy to listen to what they have to say about their motivation. No one should be required to accept a religion, but if you walk into a Christian charity, you should expect to hear something about Christianity. You dont have to join, but it would be nice if you didnt attack someone for talking about something that means a lot to them.

Dominic,

First off, I love the impassioned discussion your article has touched off!

Question for you: Do you see any acceptable way that religious people helping homeless people can also evangelize or share their beliefs without it being an abuse of power? I think it's possible, but I also think that you're right that a lot of abuse of power occurs.

this is the last time i try to care about one of these stupid articles about "whats going on in the world" all of this is trivial crap to the underlying real problems going on and that is the true uneducation of this world. Im gonna keep it short and simple JESUS IS THE WAY, thats all there is to it, thats all you need to know, if you don't like it fine! I really don't care, I have the one thing i need to fulfill my life and i am happy. Everywhere you look everyone is looking for something to fill that "void" in their lives, that void can only be filled by jesus Christ himself, nothing else will satisfy, and thats a promise. One day every tongue will confess he is God, sadly for many of you it will be too late. I officially resign myself from caring about the world in which you all live in, and live in the real one with my Jesus.

Mike C. - I don't believe in HELL.  Oooh big bad death gona get ya.  I don't want to live forever. If I'm going to buy a lottery ticket, where's the money coming from???  Help yourself?

Anne D. - You don't know many Muslims, do you?  I have some in my family.  You can't use absolutes referring to human beings.  Diversity is life.  Without diversity comes devastating genetic mutations.  Different human personalities clash but we need each other.

Jane R. - That I believe.  The Crusades and the Salem witch hunts are just 2 examples.  By the way the Crusades show it by both Muslims and Christians.  Ritual murder has been part of man's history with religion as well.

Lindsay H. - I wish there were more programs like that in my area.

Ben A. - have you ever been hungry, without money and the means to get it, in a place away from home?  If I showed up at the free dinners locally after the service, missing the message they want me to hear, I wouldn't expect a place at the table.  Sitting through the service is the price paid for the meal.  I wouldn't be surprised if it's the same all over.  Why should I buy religion as the price for a meal.  I don't go to the free dinners for this reason.  I am uncomfortable being there.  The Bible tells Christians to care for their neighbors.  It doesn't say make sure you convert them at the same time, unless you have a newer "translation"(interpretation of an interpretation of an interpretation...etc).

Ngai M. - Thank you.

I also want to apologize if i jumped a little bit off topic. lol sorry i do get a little carried away. Yall say that they should house them instead of putting them in a shelter. Do you realise how much that would cost. It is alot cheaper to provide a shelter than to provide each inividual or their family with housing.

I have never been homeless but I've had friends who have and their terrible experiences with shelters and sermons  are similar to what people have shared here.

I am pushing 70 and do not believe that my individual identity survives this "all there is." I think of death as the final adventure when I will find out for myself even if all I find is the nothingness I expect. I have lived a life serving and giving to others so I fear not the judgement of a god, if one exists. What I most fear is the homelessness and suffering that people here have experienced. The suffering of others has always bothered me which is why I have not spent my life pursuing wealth although I was set up to be one of the "masters of the universe."

I have known and know truly religious people who do what they can to help people and will only talk about their religion if asked to and religious people have shared here about their dislike of evangelizing the homeless.  But there are also a lot of non-religious people who also try to help people.  Empathy and compassion are not dependent on any religion or "ism" but are dependent on the mental health of an individual.

What religious people call evil I call illness. Since the agrarian revolution some 12,000 years ago the same hierarchical system has prevailed which favors the sociopathic. Someday when we are finally civilized, if the human race does not destroy itself, both individual and societal illness will be treated and the reign of the sociopath will be a thing of our savage past. But we can only get there if enough of us help each other without strings attached.

It's not what people believe it's what people do that counts.

r c wilson

http://groups.google.com/group/bnooz_2007

As I recall, last November, we chose Obama to take care of these inequalities and manipulations of power to exploit those in need. Any program that the U.S. sponsors, any where in the world, should never have any kinds of strings attached. Otherwise, we are hypocrites, saying we respect the freedom of religion on one hand, and controling people on the other.

that's just wrong, Obama needs to do something about it.

One of the major homeless shelters in Buffalo, New York is run by a Pentacostal group. The city Mission has a women's shelter called Cornerstone Manor. I was there for a while. We had to attend an early morning church service or we could not eat breakfast! I am not particularly fond of their version of Christianity. It felt bad enough to be homeless. I really didn't need to hear about what a sinner I was just to be able to eat breakfast! Did I mention that they do recieve some government funding? I am also a Social Work student in Buffalo. I'm apalled and disgusted that the BSW students in my school(quite a few actually) don't have a problem with this. Some of them openly and proudly support it! They defend this religious group by saying "they are helping people". No kids, they are discriminating against a vulnerable population. It's opportunistic and it's wrong!!! What ever happened to seperation of church and state? I'm a Lutheran by the way, and have been to many Catholic service providers and Jewish service providers. They have never forced their religious views on me as a condition of receiving services. How do the Pentacostals get away with this? Didn't Obama appoint a Pentacostal to oversee "faith based organizations"? What happened to change?

Thanks for your comment Robin, you will make a good Social Worker.

Dominic, it seems you have had a pile on from the so called "christians". First of all, anyone who has a hidden agenda when giving someone a meal should be ashamed of themselves. I saw one post said "i like to hang around and share my beliefs with them.." well isn't that special?! That's CONDITIONAL giving, and it should be no more. PERIOD

I have to be honest--I am shocked at the tone of this article and this conversation. It stereotypes all Christians into one group, and some of the language used in this discussion borders on hate speech.

The most renound management guru of the 20th century said of the Salvation Army, "The Salvation Army is by far the most effective organization in the U.S. No one even comes close to it in respect to clarity of mission, ability to innovate, measurable results, dedication and putting money to maximum use."

Promoting hate toward faith-based organizations alienates many of the groups that you need to be partnering with--especially people of color.  If you don't understand the connection between faith and people of color, then you might want to check out my article at http://www.urbanministry.org/nonprofitdiversity

All 12-step programs like Alcoholics Anonymous have several of their steps that involve faith.  Many faith-based recovery programs have essentially the same requirement as these programs.

Your tone risks alienating faith-based organizations where two thirds of Black and Latino nonprofit leaders operate.  That may not be an issue in Australia, but it is a big issue in the United States and it is a big issue globally. 

There are too many secular missionaries that are following the  the "bad missionary model" but with a new name. They fail to recognize that globally, 97.5% of people profess some faith. Often by having restrictions on faith, these organizations think that they are blocking right-wing religious groups like Jerry Fallwell, but in reality they are usually blocking Black and Latino religious leaders that could become the next Martin Luther King, Jr.

Andrew, are you saying that I'm a racist because I don't agree with your "version" of Christianity? Hmmmm? I will have to tell my African American friends this one! You are really too much! Faith is not defined by one group you know? People have the right to choose what they belive in. People in need are no exception to this basic human right. If I knew that a person was being denied food or clothing or shelter because they were a fundamentalist Christian, I would be the first one to fight for their rights. I would fight for the rights of an Atheist as well. We are all part of the family of humanity. I have the right to disagree with my brothers and sisters just as they have the right to disagree with me. I do not believe that they should have the right to deny food or shelter based on willingness to have beliefs of others forced on them. Maybe I'm wrong or misinformed, but I was under the impression that devotion to Christ requires self sacrifice(not the sacrifice of those who do not appear to be properly indoctrinated according to the beliefs of ONE GROUP OF CHRISTIANS). I was alive and remember when the Reverend Martin Luther King(who is one of my personal heroes) was killed. Don't even go there Andrew. Faith based organizations who practice discrimination could use a little alienating. God knows they can dish that out neatly enough!

I must reply to what Danetta said about homeless shelters and an emergency shelter. If you have a medical need they won't let you in if you are a health risk due to the dirtiness of the shelter. I have just experienced this myself where I did not have something done because I didn't have an adequate place to recoup.

Homelessness sucks and anyone who cause any other human being to go through it should be ashamed! I did once and was hurt for years because of it but at least in the "true Christian Family" there is forgivness and COMpassion which needs to be shown to all people.

I must reply to what Danetta said about homeless shelters and an emergency shelter. If you have a medical need they won't let you in if you are a health risk due to the dirtiness of the shelter. I have just experienced this myself where I did not have something done because I didn't have an adequate place to recoup.

Homelessness sucks and anyone who cause any other human being to go through it should be ashamed! I did once and was hurt for years because of it but at least in the "true Christian Family" there is forgivness and COMpassion which needs to be shown to all people.

I have been reading these posts  on homelessness or having them read to me and I have to say the troubling thing is everyone talks alot but they aren't willing to get there hands dirty. Here is one thing I will say then shut up quite typing and get off the oppsite of your lap and do something about it.

The other funny factoid is that more churches give to homlesness and those in poverty than any other group. Yes there are a few churches that have you sign your first born away just to get a tiny bit and then as Danetta said they give you a book to read. BUT as a whole the vast majority of churches give, durning Katrina they were some of the first on the ground giving aide and other places as well.

There are those  who have lost their first love of God and there own family just to hurt them because they think the church has somehow wronged them so they take out their paranoia on those who love them. Or better put it is someone elses fault and not mine.

If you have to sit and listen to a sermon so what if that is going to get you food on your table or a bed to sleep in tonight at least the churches as a whole won't beat you over the head unless your a hard head.

We need to look beyond what we think of the church and the wrong you think they might have done you and press on to finish the race.

I think I'll just go for a joy ride instead of going to church.

Ah, truth out of the mouths of babes.

Chris M.-Nobody is saying that people should be denied religious freedom. I don't fill my car up with fuel at the Dentist's office. I go to the gas station for that. If people want to hear a sermon, a church service is the appropriate place for that. In part, the Magna Carta was written for the purpose of putting an end to abuse of power . Even in medieval times, religious leaders felt that baptism, marriage or conversion under duress or due to coercian was a violation of religious principles. They understood that people should come to God themselves. Dark Ages my butt.

In response to Anne D.-

Accepting handouts? Get over it? If you were drowning and I reached out my hand to help you stay above the water, would you want to listen to a sermon about how you are a bad person? Should I say that you are obligated to submit to my beliefs because I gave you a "handout"? Should I say "hey, dumbass, you should know how to swim"? How about"get over it free loader"? Do you think that after the elderly in America have collected their 5 years worth(yes, each person has actually only put in about 5 years worth of Social Security payments by retirement age)we should take their money away because it is actually the equivilent of a government handout funded by taxpayers after that? Sorry Nana, you shouldn't have gotton old, get over it. How about denying medical treatment to pedestrians who get hit by cars. Should they get treated? Should we only treat those who were struck while in a crosswalk. Hey, they should be able to cross the street properly, right? Do you think that poor people are to blame for their poverty? Are you a millionaire? You could be if you really tried, so why aren't you? Are you lazy?

Hey Ben,

It's o.k. that you don't believe in God. You sure do make a lot of assumptions though. I'm not "everybody" and furthermore, who died and made you boss of the "what constitutes a proper Christian" committe? I think the fundies already have that kind of thing covered. Wouldn't it be arrogant of people to tell you that you shouldn't be a non-believer because you don't fall in line with their belief about what is right and wrong thinking for non-believers?

Laura K.- You are quite right. Helping others should come naturally. I have also been helped by people of faith and they were members of fundamentalist type churches. They were also ethical people. They did not preach to me, but we had discussions about our beliefs. They were good people who helped me without pushing their religious agenda on me. I'll always remember them. When I thanked them, they did not ask me to convert in repayment. Their only request was that I help someone else in need when I am able. The world would be a better place if there were more people who were ethical enough to help people in need without assuming that they need or want to be converted to the "fundamentalist industry".

Hey folks,

I really shouldn't have even started debating religion. It's not the point here. The point is that it is dehumanizing and demoralizing to be told that you HAVE to go sit in a pew at 8 a.m. every day and listen to a sermon or else you can't eat breakfast. I don't think that you would like having someone stand over your shoulder every morning to make sure that you brush your teeth properly or be denied dental care. How about if you were refused medical treatment because you drank too much coffee today? We are talking about people who have no home, no money, and no bus fare to even go to another soup kitchen for their meal. I can understand a religious facility asking(not demanding) that people say grace before a meal that they are providing ( Kudos to the Loaves and Fishes Dining Room of Buffalo New York for asking nothing-just providing), but we are talking about women with children and babies. Some of them are there to escape brutal abuse! A young woman who was a resident when I was at the shelter that made us go to church was a 19 year old who had her boyfriend stomp her belly until their baby that she carried was killed. The young woman almost lost her life as well. Do you think that what she needed at that time was a daily sermon about being a sinner? If there were more shelters in Buffalo, people would not have to go there, but most end up there out of desperation. For those who don't mind it, fine, go there. It's just really upsetting that the city mission of Buffalo and the cornerstone manor which is run by the same people, are able to receive government funds to further their agenda. I would rather see the money go to other shelters and soup kitchens that don't require people to be force fed their religious beliefs. There are lots of religious groups who respect the diverse population of people in the city of Buffalo. Unfortunately, they have to give up some of their funding to right wing conservative so called Christian groups. Did anyone watch the CNN newscast about how government reps. were being chased into the parking lots outside of town hall meetings today? This was because they supported Obama's health care for all. I'm really scared by the ignorance and greed and hatefulness towards anyone who even suggests that we should care about those less fortunate. What would Jesus do INDEED!

http://PaulAndrewAnderson.org/homeless.html

http://PaulAndrewAnderson.org/poverty.html

we have a church who requires prayer for food and another one required hour bible study for (maybe) a shower.

 one shelter  rigorous intake process access by thier md thier phd - all pray before dinner and jesus is the way. you  also must be able.

Even though this  county has big jewish and muslim and disabled  populations and  though built on donated fed land given to a city.  CIVIL RIGHTS ARE A JOKE for the homeless and this is private funded .

those hired to  advocate for disabled and homeless are failures too. most  free legal comes Right out and says we don't know HUD ADA or 504 or we only do  certain high profile class actions.

 Homeless disabled individuals are low profile.

dear ben

 Last thing i want to hear is after being left out in the road multi disabled for years  ( most religious are the worst to the disabled and those with special needs)  by those very hypocrits  is their propaganda.  (pretend) to believe or starve.  

i starved.