End Homelessness

Police Shoot and Kill Homeless Man... AGAIN

Published July 07, 2009 @ 08:26PM PT

A knife wielding homeless man was shot and killed by Police in Philadelphia on Friday.

The 20 year veteran Police didn't elect to use a Taser, they didn't use a night stick, they didn't retreat to a safe distance. They did what they were trained to do = use deadly force / shoot to kill with a gun.

All Police are trained to use deadly force under certain conditions. What that equates to from one Police force to another varies.

A highly ranked Cop explained to me that if a person with a knife runs at Police, in his jurisdiction (not Philadelphia) Police are trained to draw their gun and shoot to kill as soon as the person is within 100 feet of them.

Why shoot to kill? Because Police are not very good shots he said, they have to aim for the torso, it's not like they can shoot them in the leg like in the movies.  The adrenalin kicks in and they are scared.

Why from 100 feet or closer? Because by the time it takes an officer to draw their weapon and shoot at least a few shots, at someone running towards them they could miss he said. So it could take a few shots.

I asked but can't the Police retreat away from the person with the knife? Answer: That's not how we operate. The training is to shoot to kill.

For Police involved in any shooting I'm sure it's a horrible experience that haunts them and it's no greater injustice that the life lost was that of a homeless person.

Tasers are supposed to provide a safer option of subduing a person. Not sure why they were not used in this case.

At any rate, I think Police training could be improved when dealing with a person with a knife. Retreat and defuse should be given to them in their training.

The only reason why the training is so old school is because the first priority is to keep Police alive and the benefit of the doubt is not given to officers that they would be able to judge themselves how best to handle life threatening situations and retreat to safety.

If I was a Cop I'd rather Taser someone or belt them with a night stick than shoot them with a gun if they were after me with a knife.

But what do I know, I'm just a bleeding heart Social Worker.

Should Police be credited with intelligence and permitted to retreat to safety? I think so.

What's your take on this Police killing of a homeless man in Philadelphia? Or other killings by Police, especially of homeless people?

Oh, by the way I notice a teenager got life in prison for killing a homeless person but that's a different issue.

Current and formerly homeless people are invited to join the Homeless Forums

 

 

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Comments (10)

  1. Anti Vigilante

    This is the result of the militarization of police. They've been Blackwatered. It only serves the state power hub.

    To protect and to serve is teh old skool.

    Myself I've had nothing but pleasant experiences with police.

    But this is what institutionalism does. And all it would take is for one cop to sue for not having that training made available to put an end to it.

    Posted by Anti Vigilante on 07/07/2009 @ 10:59PM PT

  2. Danetta Amschler

    Let's get this straight?  Police are trained to shoot to kill because they're "bad shots".  This sounds like a training issue.  Add to this that many homeless are mentally ill and/or drunk or high.  This is another training issue.  At best our cops have been very badly trained AND trained to be intentionally violent (to the point of deadly force) even if it's not necessarily the best/most appropriate response.  It should be a federal law that cities have a minimum number of mental health responders on their law enforcement as based on population and that everyone else have mental health response training.  It should also be mandatory that police learn to use the lowest level of appropriate response first - which isn't always deadly force, that's what stuff like night sticks and tasers ARE for.  Too many are dying unnecessary deaths because of lazy and/or overzealous/overly violent cops and few care because most deaths are of the poor and/or homeless many of whom are addicts and/or mentally ill.

    Posted by Danetta Amschler on 07/08/2009 @ 06:42AM PT

  3. With the information at hand (the blog and associated article), I see no problem with what the police did. The situation is an unfortunate one for both sides. There is no doubt about that, but let's look at the facts. This occured near city hall at 8:30am. I'm assuming that there were civilians around at the time. A man with a knife charged at police officers putting their lives at risk.

    Let's take this step by step. The officers initially called for assistance to defuse the situation without force. Exactly what they should have done. Then their lives were put in danger by a man charging with a knife and they shot him in the torso. Again, exactly right. The idea that you can fend off a man with a knife by using a knight stick is ridiculous so I will not comment on that further. I'm not sure if all patrol officers carry tasers, and even if they did, unfortunately they are just not reliable enough. Cops shoot for the torso because it is the biggest target. They can not start shooting at moving arms and legs with cizilians in the area. The risk of hitting an innocent party is too high. These men are not sharpshooters. And the other argument is run away? Come on? Are we being serious here?

    In closing I'd like to say that police work is an extremely difficult job. Unfortunate things happen, but these officers acted correctly. The homeless man died because he came at officers with a knife. Not because cops are lazy or overly violent. I'd like to see you walk in a cop's shoes for a day or two instead of armchair quarterbacking from the comforts of home.

    Posted by Dennis G. on 07/10/2009 @ 10:14PM PT

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  4. Danetta Amschler

    Difficult, yes, I'm not about to argue.  However, how many officers react (and in some cases it's even how they've been trained to react) makes situations worse than it needs to be and can even escalate a situation - particularly if dealing with someone who is an addict or mentally ill.  So better crisis resolution skills would work wonders in many situations or certainly has the potential to do so.  I've seen many situations that were relatively peaceful - other than that someone had a potential weapon within reach - and one or more cops basically went off.  I've spent hours under my desk because local law enforcement sent in SWAT instead of just a Sheriff to evict a neighbor - and didn't bother to warn anyone to leave. 

    Maybe this particular situation couldn't have been avoided or at most would just have been delayed a few moments - but many COULD be avoided with the potentially violent person going to jail or the psych ward peacefully and voluntarily in the end, if only the cops would more calmly and appropriately react. Screaming with weapons drawn, ready to fire isn't always the most appropriate response.

    Posted by Danetta Amschler on 07/10/2009 @ 10:46PM PT

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  6. Robert Woodley

    This doesn't belong on the 'End Homelessness' forum page. It is only here because the victim was homeless. The issue of valid use of force is the same regardless of whether the victim is homeless or not. People follow this forum to hear about homelessness issues, which this is not.

    Posted by Robert Woodley on 07/09/2009 @ 10:19AM PT

  7. Anti Vigilante

    Homeless people are treated like criminals in shelters. Guess what effect that has on how they are perceived by cops?

    It is exactly the same issue. Only deadly.

    Posted by Anti Vigilante on 07/09/2009 @ 12:06PM PT

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  8. Danetta Amschler

    Must agree with Anti Vigilante.  Homeless are often treated as criminals or even worse than criminals in shelters and particularly so if they can figure out you fall in certain categories (like mentally ill).  Once you're outside - and you spend a lot of time outside since quite a lot of shelters are just drop in shelters where you sleep at night till around dawn - you face the same attitudes (or worse) from the public, drawn along the same lines.

    Posted by Danetta Amschler on 07/10/2009 @ 10:49PM PT

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  10. Anti Vigilante

    I fail to see how multiple cops can't surround a knife wielding homeless person.

    This is poor training combined with rationalizations that can't apply to cops.

    Posted by Anti Vigilante on 07/10/2009 @ 11:34PM PT

  11. jan Lightfootlane

    In Maine women with weapons are killed twice as quickly as a man. With males police will be in a stand off for a day. With a women 3-5 hours seem to be the tops.

    I will leave for kentucky tomorrow Tues. There is an abolishing poverty conference there. It is billed as taking up where MLK.Jr left off at Spalding University in Louisville KY on July 16th-19th. 

    As I was 7-12 when the first civil rights happened an living in Conn. I did not attended those. Be damned if anyone can stop this nearly 60 year old, this time. Economic Human rights here I come.

    Oh that reminds me their is another thread were people debate if the right to housing is a right. Its 24 days, 5988 miles.

    Posted by jan Lightfootlane on 07/13/2009 @ 06:08AM PT

  12. Dominic Mapstone

    I had thought the stand offs that last hours are less likely to end in a death and less likely to involve a homeless person.

    My impression was homeless shootings by Police tend to be short term street face-offs.

    For those housed but experiencing mental illness it would be a longer term situation I suppose.

    On the issue of housed women as Police shooting victims have you noticed if that was because of children being involved?

    Posted by Dominic Mapstone on 07/13/2009 @ 06:53AM PT

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Author
Dominic Mapstone

Dominic Mapstone is a Social Worker who has worked with homeless people since 1994. He is Director of Rebeccas Community, an Australian non-profit, and admin at the International Homeless Forum. He is biased entirely in favor of the street homeless perspective. He enjoys long walks on the beach so long as there is fishing involved.

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